Zach Wilson - MERGED (All Zach Threads will be merged here)

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by WoodyHarrelson, Dec 22, 2022.

  1. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Check out this article:

    https://www.sportscasting.com/troy-...at-nfl-quarterbacks-had-awful-rookie-seasons/
     
  2. Jets79

    Jets79 Well-Known Member

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    yeah but a couple things…the game was way different when Elway, Aikman, and Bradshaw played in terms of passing…night and day. The rules are set up to help the passing game way more today…so the stats are not apples to apples.

    second, I believe both Aikman and Elway improved in their second year…whereas I just showed the stats for Zach and he actually got worse in almost every stat. Not the same.

    finally, for those three QBs who started with bad years but got better, there are many more who started poorly and never got better…we can hold up Jamarcus Russell, Rosen, and Leaf….they also started like shit and never got better.

    so which track is Zach on? I’ll grant that MLF didn’t seem like a fan (probably because he saw Zach sucks) and didn’t really tweak his system to suit Zach, but honestly I think it’s more Zach than MLF.

    but we’ll see…
     
  3. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    They're on sale.
    Get yours now!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. JetFanInPA

    JetFanInPA Well-Known Member

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  5. 50ShadesOfGreen

    50ShadesOfGreen Well-Known Member

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    Zach Wilson looks fat.
     
  6. Jets-N-Terps

    Jets-N-Terps Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to address the eye test paragraph of Jets79's post...That's another fail by Zach wilson.

    If injuries were a big part of all his struggles this year as you claim they were, he's not durable enough to be playing in this league. He is on the small side and has missed significant time both years.

    The arguments are far stronger on the negative with Wilson because they are based on what actually happened (zach being the worst starter in the league since he came in) vs. what may have happened or could happen in a perfect situation.
     
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  7. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    The biggest assumption consistently made on this subject is that Greg Knapp would have been a miracle worker in making Wilson into an NFL quarterback and that none of LaFleur, Cavanaugh, Calabrese or Beck did anything at all to improve his game. We have absolutely nothing to point to in order to validate those claims.
     
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  8. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    What you said was:

    "no great QB has started as bad as Zach..."

    I gave you a link to an article that showed that statement was wrong. You respond by putting additional qualifiers on it. It doesn't make any difference what "era" those QBs played in. What matters is that they overcame terrible beginnings of their career to become great. I'm not even claiming that Wilson will be great, simply that he still has potential if the Jets (or some other team) give him a good coach and a system that works with his strengths.
     
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  9. burf

    burf Well-Known Member

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    To me, at this point, I don't see Saleh as a real HC. He's the Jets PR frontman. T-shirts, lots of cliches, but when it comes to football, I see no instinctive feel for the game itself, everything is about data/analytics. As far as his responsibilities as a HC, he passes everything to his underlings, especially on the offensive side of the ball. He has no answers when things start going wrong, just excuses.
    I'm actually at the point, where unless a HC candidate has HCing experience in the NFL, then you hire a successful college HC. Enough with coordinators, who when they become HCs, haven't a clue what a HC does. And that's why most of them fail the first time around, with rare exceptions. Same with lower coaches becoming coordinators, like MLF. He seemed to think that the only elevation between passing game coordinator, & OC, was he got to use his scheme, & call plays. All other responsibilities of an OC, were neglected.
    .
     
  10. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    No, as far as I know no one has made that assertion. Many - including myself - said that the loss of Knapp was a huge blow in Zach's development, but it wasn't the only issue.

    Moreover, the Jets did hire Beck to try to fill the hole left by Knapp and that did seem to help, but then they failed to retain him this season, so that was Part 2 of their failure.

    But perhaps the biggest contributor to the failure to develop Wilson properly was LaFleur - both in the scheme he employed, his version of the WCO, and his apparent conviction that Zach wasn't a good fit for it. Now it may well be that Zach wasn't - from the results, that's a good bet - but if so then it was incumbent on LaFleur to modify his system to better suit Zach's strengths. Instead, he continued to try to force Zach to try and become a type of QB that went against his best traits. And beyond that, he apparently made his doubts and dissatisfaction with Zach known beyond his communications with Saleh and Douglas. And that's the likely reason he was let go.

    So again Ralebird, you're simply manufacturing your own straw man that you can more easily challenge. I hope you have animals that you can feed this "straw" to, because it's of no use here.
     
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  11. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I've been saying this for years. If you can't get an experienced NFL HC, then get a successful HC from the college ranks. Of course not every - or even most - college HCs have the ability to coach professionals, but there are some, and those are more preferable than almost any coordinator who has never been a HC already.
     
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  12. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    you have to pay more for them and Woody is cheap
     
  13. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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  14. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    yeah I mean the easy part is being bad as a rookie. The hard part is actually within improvement
     
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  15. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    All you've done here is repeat the same assumptions. No one claimed Knapp's loss was the only reason for Wilson's failure just that it was a factor but no one knows if it actually was. There's no way of knowing if he would have been the singular person who could get through to Wilson. No one knows why Beck was not retained or whose decision it was to part ways with him. There is no indication that Wilson ever went back to Beck privately, as he had started with him. You can call it part of the Jets failure but it could just as easily been part of Wilson's failure. Knapp died and was replaced; his replacements don't fit your standards - who would have?

    I don't know what scheme Wilson would have been a good fit in while consistency in completing the easy passes has been a struggle for him for two years. The guy needs to establish the basics before breaking out.

    Your "strawman" claim is ridiculous in its face when there is nothing to establish the claims I cited of Knapp's loss being significant to Wilson's development or the failure of four coaches to make a change in Wilson's performance. Your Knapp and other coaches claims are the true strawmen because they are unsupportable.
     
  16. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    Peyton Manning had a very promising first season also. Set the all-time record for picks by a rookie but also the record for TD passes.
     
  17. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    How can you say the bold? You were allowed to clothesline quarterbacks when Bradshaw and even Elway played. Players played with concussions. You could contact receivers downfield. Defensive holding and illegal contact didn’t exist.

    Bizarre to say that.
     
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  18. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Manning as rookie: 3 touchdown passes including a game winner with 30 seconds left against Bill Belichick's New York Jets defense in a comeback 24-23 win.

    It was the only game the Jets lost from early october until January 17th when they lost in the AFC Championship game
     
  19. Since1969

    Since1969 Well-Known Member

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    Let's not forget that the current CBA makes it more difficult to develop young QBs.

    The CS can't bring a young QB in during the off-season for intensive one-on-one work. The number of practices and padded practices are limited in training camp and during the regular season, so first-team reps under battle conditions are limited. If the young QB isn't the starter, first-team reps under battle conditions may be hard to come by.

    I understand that there are reasons why the Players Association insisted on these restrictions, but the fact remains that they make it more difficult to develop young players.
     
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  20. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    There should be an exception for players with fully guaranteed contracts. The team should be given much better access to them in the off-season within further established guidelines. This would include all 1st round picks by definition since those contracts are fully guaranteed.
     
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