I thought it was lame when Sanders somersaulted into the end zone last week, stupid when Ryan did his Michael Jackson thing this week and borderline when AA tumbled on his score - there's probably an argument that his finish was part of a necessary scoring dive. Not sure I agree.
Imagine that baseball players were hitting homeruns, circling the bases and then doing the antics that football players do after a TD in the on-deck circle before they got back to the dugout. How long would that last? It's just a really undignified ending to what should be a highlight during the game and it's all done to further the individual player's brand. I just don't see how it's in the best interests of the NFL to allow the kind of hot dogging that occurs today to continue. A simple rule change would be to say that no celebrations are allowed on the field. Players can do whatever they want to do after they get back to their sidelines. The NFL could setup special celebration areas for players who really need to get their dougie on after accomplishing something on the field.
I never get angry at other teams players for celebrating. I get angry at my team players celebrating. I can except the fact that the Pats, Dolphins and Bills players lack any sense of class, sportsmanship or personal dignity. I would prefer the Jets players have some class, sportsmanship and dignity.
they did this many years ago. i can remember icky woods having to go to the sideline to do the icky shuffle. which in comparison to what these guys do now was nothing. its been a debate since i can remember in the early 80s. just like the redskins i think it will be a point of contention for some time to come.
BTW, I hated this stuff when Gastineau did it. It was embarrassing for the team and I thought it detracted from the overall team spirit to have him out on his own whirling in space after a team effort had brought the QB to the ground. It was of course marketing and brand management by Gastineau and he got endorsements out of it. That's why he did that stuff. It had no legitimate business on the field and it should have been stopped.
I think you need to take off your historian's cap considering we are now living in a lawful society. This isn't biblical times, this it isn't the lawless wild wild west, it's 2013. No need to revisit why laws and rules were established in the first place. We don't need rules anymore that you shouldn't kill someone or rob a bank or embezzle from your pension fund or bang little boys. We also (the NFL I am speaking of) don't need specific rules about how to conduct yourself civilly in the context of a game against professional opponents. It's as if some of you are suggesting because there isn't a SPECIFIC rule about some SPECIFIC type of taunt, that it shouldn't be a penalty. Again, I'm not talking about penalties. I'm talking about a professional code of conduct--how to treat your opponents. It's not about spiking the ball or chest bumping a teammate--it's about the hotdogging BS. You're like a bunch of George Costanza's after he had sex on the desk with the cleaning lady--"Oh, was that wrong? Should I not have done that? Had I known that was frowned upon..." _
To be perfectly honest, I thought that was a Boomer and Carton spoof, the first 3-4 times I heard it. Still can't believe he recorded that song. :rofl: _
Ii don't mind the jolly endzone dancing. I kind of shut off after a td is scored. I'm either celebrating myself or turning away in disgust. I do have a problem with the guys celebrating prior to getting into the endzone...particularly the slowingdown on the way in bullshit which seems like a new 'wrinkle'. Guy on pitt did it two weeks ago as didthe guy on the pats this past week. Its showingup the opponent and negative. An endzone dance comes from a happy place. My favorite, though, was Curtis Martin- flip the football to the ref, run to the sideline, prepare for next series. Wasn't Murrell like that too? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.
Listen, I get what you're saying about the minutiae of policing celebrations. However, I think you aren't grasping what I am saying and perhaps what others have said as well. What I am arguing against is your assumption, essentially, that civilized people know how to act because they are civilized (I'm paraphrasing here). I think you are unaware of how silly that statement is and i will try to illuminate below. Consider how you began your reply. You just said we live in a LAWFUL society, right? But then you follow that up by saying we don't need rules. The problem is that rules ARE laws. So, in essence you are arguing that we don't need rules BECAUSE we have rules?!? This doesn't even touch on the hot topic of cultural relativism (which actually applies here). What may seem in/appropriate to you may be the exact opposite to someone else. So unless the 'group' (eg- the tribe, nation, NFL, whatever) decides on the rule then NO ONE will know how to act. And that last point is my main point. You argue that we do not need rules because we all know how to act. In fact it is rules that TELL us how to act. This is basic logic. We all know the rules to football, right? So if we get rid of the rules then how do you play? Can I kick an opposing player in the nuts? why not? After all, the rules are gone because we all "know" them and yet removing the rules means I don't have to follow them. Another example of this is when you mentioned robbery, etc. How could you possibly argue that we don't need rules/laws against robbery or child molestation when those things happen every day? Maybe where you live everything is roses and shit doesn't stink but I can assure you that without rules/laws/norms/etc some of the peeps in my region may do something bad (and I don't just mean breaking the speed limit alongside me). Now you're right about one thing: there isn't any need to dredge up biblical history to discuss historic law. Personally, I am a professor of modern military historian myself, so my interests are much more recent. But I can also assure you that the rules or society have continued to change over the past few centuries and continue to do so. This isn't an issue going back to to mythical Adam and Eve. How we conduct ourselves, even in something as seemingly tangential to 'real' life as football celebrations, makes an impression on society and culture and sets and overall tone that moulds the age. Let me leave you with this: what constitutes acting civilly when facing a sporting opponent when you've scored? 1. Grabbing your crotch and doing some sort of public, sexual thing? 2. Dancing around feverishly a la Mark Gastineau? 3. Spiking the ball into the ground? 4. Calmly walking off the field? 5. Bowing to your opponent gracefully? 6. The whole team coming together in a big group hug? 7. Hiding gimmicks around the football field so you can embarrass the opposing team and give the fans a giggle? 8. Jump up into the stands (Lambeau Leap)? 9. Rip your clothes/uniform off and go running around the field. 10. And others.. Or how about when a game has ended? 1. Shaking hands in a line? 2. Shaking hands in a big mass of players and assorted peeps? 3. Everyone bows to each other Japanese style? 4. A huge feast is held and the loser has to pay? 5. You just walk off the field yelling "you suck" to the losing team? 6. You execute the people of the losing team. They lost, they need to die. 7. You drape yourself in you national/state/local/team flag and all the players flaunt their pride! 8. You walk off the field without even acknowledging the losing team exists. 9. And others. You see, some of these we could agree on and some not, but then you run into a problem. move to another country and the answers change. Move to a different sport and the answers change. You assume that there is a big mythical font of knowledge where we all know what is civilized and proper. the problem is that that doesn't exist.
So this is what you got from my opinion piece, that because I know how to act in a civilized society that I think we don't need rules or laws? That I don't understand the basis for why rules and laws have been instituted since the beggining of time? I'm a lawyer, I know we need rules and laws as much as anyone. My brother was a homicide detective and my other brother was a NYC beat cop, plus I'm 50+ years old--believe me I know what people in a "lawful" and "civilized" society are capable of and why rules and laws are needed (actually it's the punishment aspect I appreciate the most but rue the system that metes it out). Because I don't need rules or laws to know how to act does not mean that they are not needed in society--but this isn't a greater societal question, and not about different countries, cultures or even different sports. The question was our opinion on hotdogging in the NFL, whether we were sick of it. So yes, in my utopian world--where my "opinion" on hotdogging lives--professional NFL athletes acting like a-holes to other professional NFL athletes to me is tough to watch. But I'm not dense enough to not accept the fact that there are cultural issues even within the NFL that make this behavior acceptable--just like maybe in Michael Vicks cultural world the whole dog fighting dog training thing was acceptable. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. So again yes, in the utopian idealistic world of my opinion, I don't think there NEED to be rules on how athletes should treat each other. _
What do we have some lawyers/law school students in here with these 2,000 word replies? I say we bring back a mandatory team touchdown dance, to be done at least 1 score per game.
Different sports, different culture. Look at each sport: Soccer/Futbol: Elaborate celebrations at times, crazy celebrations, or nothing celebrations. Depending on goal to goal, player to player. Baseball: You stare at a HR too long the other team can get angry (see Atlanta Braves this year). A common theme in baseball is that the younger players "don't play the game the right way". Look at Puig in LA for example and the warranted/unwarranted criticism he would get at times. But in baseball after winning a playoff series they dump champagne all over everyone else. Could you imagine that in other sports? The JEes dumping champagne all over each other after beating IND in the WC round? Different culture. EDIT: Also for baseball if I remember correctly sometimes if a big moment happens a player will take a curtain call, the whole team will leave the dugout to celebrate with player on the field, the game will stop (Jeter's 3000th hit for example). Ray Allen broke the 3 point record for example and he got a standing O from the Boston crowd but LA inbounded the ball and went on. Ray then during a stoppage for a FT shook hands with Reggie (they guys record he broke) and Kobe patted him on the back and the game never stopped for him. Basketball: The bench might celebrate more than the actual player scoring. Each player might have specific celebration after big shots. Players constantly interact with sideline fans and taunt them (Pierce telling a fan they aren't coming back to LA after tying the series at 1-1, Kobe telling a fan watch this then hitting back to back 3s in their face, Reggie Miller/Spike Lee). Players can dunk on each other, block each other, cross each other over. Bench players can yell at opponents while they're shooting. You can score/shut down a player in both directions. The game doesn't allow for elaborate celebrations except for buzzer beaters or a big play heading into a TO and the big play heading into a TO is usually a player strutting. But the NBA is built in individual players as much as a team so it's different and this helps them. I mean popular shoes are named after players, Lebron's Jordans, Ewings, Kobe's, etc. Hockey: An internal code, you go too far, your gonna get hit and possibly fight. Whole team on ice celebrates goal usually and player goes by and slaps hands with bench. Then play resumes. It really depends sport to sport, player to player. You are right though, the NFL doesn't seem to have a consistent theme on what to do with celebrations. They rule out team celebrations but keep individual celebrations? They let sacks dances be as elaborate as possible and let corners celebrate after incomplete passes and receivers after 1st downs, not even scores.
Nobody should celebrate ever. It's not a game or anything. It matters in the world and should be taken deadly serious. lolz. Lighten up. Celebrating is fun, especially against the bitch ass Pats. Wear that brown bag of shame!!!
Guess I'm one of the few people that agrees with you. As long as the celebrations don't slow the game down, I like them. Players having fun makes it even more entertaining for me to watch to me. When home players do it, the home crowd just eats it up and becomes more energized. When away players do it, it pisses off the home crowd & makes them bring even more energy when home team plays defense.
Exactly. I guess my point can be boiled down to this, I'd like to see a little more NHL in the NFL and a little less NBA. Never said I was against celebrating--this discussion stemmed out of the NE defender slowing down when nearing the endzone in a "look-at-me-I-punked-your-ass" display of disrespect for an opponent. _
