Your current position regarding Clemens and Roids

Discussion in 'Baseball Forum' started by Yisman, Feb 13, 2008.

?

Did Clemens do steroids and/or other banned substances?

  1. Yes, I'm convinced he did steroids

    51.9%
  2. Yes, I think he did them

    36.5%
  3. I don't think he did them

    3.8%
  4. Not sure/other

    7.7%
  1. Yisman

    Yisman Newbie
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    29,723
    Likes Received:
    1,053
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080213&content_id=2372452&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

    The point created one of the snapshot moments of Wednesday's hearing, with Clemens' attorneys, Rusty Hardin and Lanny Breuer, trying to shout over the banging gavel of the committee chairman, Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.).

    While the lawyers pleaded their case, Hardin said, Clemens seethed over intimations that he had acted inappropriately in contacting the nanny before the committee was able to reach her.

    "It is hard to hold Roger down," Hardin said. "He was so anxious not to get upset about anything. This woman is a lifetime friend of the family who quit working with them when her daughter had a child. She's still very close to them. She has had a relative killed in another country and is very nervous about the government."

    In the Mitchell Report, McNamee alleges that Clemens raised the topic of steroids shortly after speaking with Canseco at the party, which was held while the Blue Jays were in town for an Interleague series against the Florida Marlins. Clemens insisted that he was not at the party, but McNamee recalled seeing a woman wearing "a peach bikini with green in it and board shorts."

    When McNamee inquired as to the woman's identity, he was told that she was Clemens' nanny.

    Waxman said that the committee had reached out to Clemens' camp late Friday in an effort to secure the woman's contact information, but a telephone interview was not conducted until Tuesday -- two days after she had already met with Clemens' investigators, at Hardin's urging, and one day after the committee was provided with her contact information.

    "Your meeting took place two days after the committee staff made a simple request for your former nanny's name, and then it took 24 hours after your meeting for your attorneys to provide her name to the Republican and Democratic staffs," Waxman said. "And that's why I'm puzzled about this. Why was it your idea -- was it your idea to meet with her before forwarding her name to us, or did someone suggest that to you?"

    "I was trying to do y'all a favor," said Clemens. "I hadn't seen this lady in a long time, she's a sweet lady, and I wanted to get her to you."

    That prompted Hardin to stand up, yelling from behind Clemens, "It was my idea! It was my idea to investigate what witnesses know, just like any other lawyer in the free world does!"

    Waxman banged his gavel several times and said that the committee would not recognize Hardin, though he did initially allow the attorneys to speak.

    Waxman later said that the actions of Clemens and his attorneys regarding the nanny "raises an appearance of impropriety. The impression it leaves is terrible."
     
  2. vinsjets

    vinsjets Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    7,814
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unbelievable.. he just keeps digging deeper and deeper.
     
  3. Beamen

    Beamen New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    9,902
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I think he mis-remembered"


    Ahahahahahahahahaha!
     
  4. Attackett

    Attackett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    12,121
    Likes Received:
    5,511
    I'm convinced enough that I would wager the pinky from my left hand, not the right hand though.

    But seriously at this point who really cares??? Its to the point that everyone should just accept that steroids was rampant in MLB clubhouses for the last 15 years or so & MLB probably approved and encouraged it, accept it and move on. I really cant believe that some of these guys are willing to risk possibly going to jail just to protect their egos.

    I'm done with the steroids talk, pitchers & catchers today, woohoo!
     
  5. typeOnegative13NY

    typeOnegative13NY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    14,416
    Likes Received:
    4,270
    Best post on the whole subject,Imo.
     
  6. Sundayjack

    Sundayjack pǝʇɔıppɐ ʎןןɐʇoʇ
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2003
    Messages:
    10,515
    Likes Received:
    798
    I wonder why I haven't heard this considered by talking legal heads yet, but I think the Federal government is almost obligated to convene a grand jury on Roger's testimony. We know that one of Barry Bonds defenses will be that the investigation against him was race-driven. Well, Bonds' testimony at the grand jury was far more ridiculous than Roger's before Congress. As widely-reported as it is that Roger was lying, to NOT at least convene a grand jury sets the Bonds prosecution up for failure. While the absence of a Clemens indictment may not be relevant to that trial, you can be sure that it will be hammered at in the press to affect the jury pool. I think they have to do it and, if I were the U.S. Attorney, I would bring in Washington D.C., where the grand jury pools is likely to skew African American.

    If they don't convene a grand jury for Roger, then I would say that they are just as obligated to withdraw the charges against Bonds. That's from someone who things, strongly, that they were BOTH the worlds' worst abusers.
     
  7. AlbanyMet

    AlbanyMet New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think he's guilty, but the fact that he has kept his story straight while Pettitte and McNamee have changed their stories leaves a little bit of a doubt in my mind.
     
  8. Jetcane

    Jetcane New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point, and i'd also recommend starting an investigation to see if there was any witness tampering with the unnamed nanny.
     
  9. vinsjets

    vinsjets Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    7,814
    Likes Received:
    0
    tr.v. mis?re?mem?bered, mis?re?mem?ber?ing, mis?re?mem?bers
    To remember incorrectly.
    :beer:
    Still sounds like a bullshit word.
     
  10. tcrock

    tcrock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2003
    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    28
    Clemens is lying through his teeth, pretty plain and simple....

    The Pettite affadavits prove it......(both Andy's and his wife)
    as was pointed out in some of the articles I read today....

    According to Pettite, in 99 or 2000 Roger tells him he used HGH....

    in 2005 Pettite asks Roger what he'll say if anyone asked him if he used HGH....or something to that effect

    Roger tells him he didn't say he used it, but rather his wife took it

    his wife (who he nicely throws under a bus....classy)....takes HGH in 2003 from McNamee according to all the deppositions

    why would Roger tell Pettite in 99 or 2000 that his wife took HGH, if she hadn't taken it until 2003?

    dumbass......maybe Roger "misremembers"

    don't know if i have this entirely accurate.....but this seems pretty stupid on Roger's part....if your gonna lie, you better get the story straight
     
  11. Yisman

    Yisman Newbie
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    29,723
    Likes Received:
    1,053
    was that from Clemens testimony? Sorry, I only heard parts of it.
     
  12. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    16,300
    Likes Received:
    15,235
    Is that really apples to apples? Bonds (allegedly) lied to a grand jury during an ongoing federal criminal investigation. Clemens (again, allegedly) lied to Congress during a politically motivated congressional dog and pony show. Either way, they both took drugs. Shocked, I am.

    Frankly, I'd like to see scarce law enforcement resources devoted to more important things, like entrapping virtual pedophiles and guys who solicit gay sex in the restrooms.
     
  13. Pam

    Pam TGG.com Friendliest Poster Fourpeat!!

    Joined:
    May 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,913
    Likes Received:
    1
    Clemens takes his lumps on Capitol Hill
    By RONALD BLUM and HOWARD FENDRICH, AP Sports Writers
    Thu Feb 14, 7:35 AM ET
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080214/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_steroids_clemens


    WASHINGTON - Roger Clemens was told he didn't sound believable. Brian McNamee was branded a "drug dealer" and reminded of past lies. With Congress apparently split over which man's version of events is true, it could be up to the Justice Department to decide.

    Clemens and McNamee, the accused and his accuser, traded contradictory stories under oath Wednesday before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform about whether the star pitcher was injected with steroids and human growth hormone by his former personal trainer.

    And while many baseball fans are turning their attention to Florida and Arizona for the first official workouts of spring training Thursday — ready for cries of "Play ball!" instead of talk about foul play — there is sure to be more discussion of Clemens and McNamee in the nation's capital.

    "It's just sad," Clemens' former manager with the New York Yankees, Joe Torre, said in Vero Beach, Fla., on the eve of his first camp with the Los Angeles Dodgers. "I'd just like to see baseball move on right now."

    After the 400-page Mitchell Report, which contained the first public airing of McNamee's allegations about Clemens, and a 4 1/2-hour House hearing about their he-said, he-said, little is settled.

    "They don't disagree on a phone call or one meeting," committee chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., said during the hearing. "If Mr. McNamee is lying, he has acted inexcusably, and he has made Mr. Clemens an innocent victim. If Mr. Clemens isn't telling the truth, then he is acting shamefully and has smeared Mr. McNamee. I don't think there is anything in between."

    Yet, afterward, Waxman told reporters: "I haven't reached any conclusions at this point" as to whether a criminal investigation is warranted.

    Several congressmen said a referral from the committee isn't needed to trigger a Justice Department inquiry if prosecutors believe either man made false statements.

    Sitting in the second row Wednesday was IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky, a key member of the team prosecuting Barry Bonds. Bonds, baseball's home run king, was indicted in November on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice stemming from his 2003 testimony to a grand jury in which he denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs.

    It was Novitzky who last month collected used needles and bloody gauze pads that McNamee's camp turned over for testing. The trainer's lawyers call the items evidence that contains performance-enhancing drugs and Clemens' DNA. Clemens' side call the items "manufactured."

    Either way, the Justice Department has them.

    McNamee told baseball investigator George Mitchell he injected Clemens 16 to 21 times with performance-enhancing drugs from 1998 to 2001. On Wednesday, McNamee said those numbers are low.

    Clemens' vigorous denials about using steroids or HGH drew Congress' attention, and he repeated them Wednesday.

    His reputation and Hall of Fame candidacy potentially at stake — not to mention the possibility of criminal charges, should he lie — Clemens said: "I have never taken steroids or HGH. No matter what we discuss here today, I am never going to have my name restored."

    Sticking out his famous right arm — the one that earned 354 major league wins, seven Cy Young Awards, $160 million — Clemens pointed in the direction of McNamee, sitting only a few feet away.

    Without looking at a man he once considered a friend, Clemens told the panel, "I have strong disagreements with what this man says about me."

    Just like their stories, Clemens' Texas drawl was in strong contrast to the clipped cadences of McNamee, a former New York police officer.

    "I told the investigators I injected three people — two of whom I know confirmed my account," McNamee said. "The third is sitting at this table."

    Former Clemens teammates Andy Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch both acknowledged that McNamee was correct when he said they used performance enhancers. Both were excused from testifying, but Pettitte gave the committee a sworn affidavit in which he told the committee Clemens said nearly 10 years ago that he used HGH.

    Waxman read from affidavits by Pettitte and his wife, Laura, supporting the accusations. Clemens said Pettitte "misremembers" things.

    There were other revelations. Clemens' wife, Debbie, sat in the front row behind him and listened as Waxman implicated her in HGH use, citing statements by Pettitte. Clemens testified his wife took HGH once, although according to the transcript of last week's sworn deposition, Clemens told committee lawyers he didn't know of family members taking HGH.

    Waxman also said Clemens might have tried to influence statements to the committee by the pitcher's former nanny.

    Clemens and McNamee, by all accounts once good friends, rarely glanced at one another. When Clemens did turn to his right, it was with the Rocket's mound glare. Seated between them was the day's third witness, Charles Scheeler, a lawyer who helped compile the report on drug use in baseball headed by former Senate majority leader George Mitchell.

    "Someone is lying in spectacular fashion," said Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, the committee's ranking Republican.

    Eventually, the committee split largely along party lines, with the Democrats reserving their most pointed queries for Clemens, and the Republicans giving McNamee a rougher time.

    "It's hard to believe you, sir," Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., told Clemens. "I hate to say that. You're one of my heroes. But it's hard to believe."

    Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., told McNamee: "You're here under oath, and yet we have lie after lie after lie after lie."

    Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., repeatedly called McNamee a "drug dealer."

    One of McNamee's lawyers, Earl Ward, called it a "public flogging."

    The Mitchell Report itself was prompted by another hearing on steroids held by the same committee in the same wood-paneled room, on March 17, 2005. That is best remembered for having tarnished the reputations of Mark McGwire — who infamously repeated, "I'm not here to talk about the past" — and Rafael Palmeiro — who wagged his finger and declared he never had used steroids, then failed a drug test months later.

    In a reference to that day, Rep. Mark Souder, R-Ind., cautioned Clemens and McNamee: "It's better not to talk about the past than to lie about the past."

    At times, Clemens struggled to find the right words as he was pressed by lawmakers. Toward the end, he raised his voice to interrupt Waxman's closing remarks. The chairman pounded his gavel and said, "Excuse me, but this is not your time to argue with me."

    When it was over, Clemens shook hands with Davis, then left through a back door.

    Clemens later told reporters: "I'm very thankful and very grateful for this day to come. I'm glad for the opportunity finally. And, you know, I hope I get — and I know I will have — the opportunity to come here to Washington again under different terms."

    _______________________________________________________________________

    So, it's clear one is lying but who? Perjury charges for someone.
     
  14. dubagedi

    dubagedi New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Warning: Hijack

    What I find interesting in all of this is the way Pettite is coming out unscathed. He basically took the Bill Clinton route by saying "I tried HGH once, only once and never ever again." and few months ago and it was revealed a few days ago that he also used in '04. Most of what I've read about PEDS suggests that HGH and Steroids are almost equivalent to pot and heroin in terms of effects, especially in muscle building. There is no way in my mind, that after being workout buddies with Clemens and Mcnamee Pettite has only done HGH in his past, and only sparingly.
     
  15. vinsjets

    vinsjets Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    7,814
    Likes Received:
    0
    Difference is, Pettite, instead of denying ever touching HGH, he fessed up after the mitchell report. And now he's helping [maybe] enhance the report by backing Mcnamee's information, which is the backbone of the report. Our society is very forgiving, especially when it comes to pro athletes admitting wrong doing.
     
  16. dubagedi

    dubagedi New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right, he did fess up to it but it seems that because he has fessed up to a smaller crime he is being let off the hook in terms of speculation that he has done more.
     
  17. davecrazy

    davecrazy Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,337
    Likes Received:
    6
    Oh Pettite is a dirty cheater too, but Clemroid is a dirty cheater *and* a liar.
     
  18. TampaBayJetsFan85

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    0
    This guy has a history or lying, he just has a lying problem, the man was fired as a police officer because of lying... No way I believe this guy over one of the greatest pitchers to ever play the game...

    Im sorry, but this guy is a natural born lier in my eyes.

    Jose was known as "The baseball snitch" For calling out everyone in his book who used Roids... Not once did he ever acuse Roger.
     
  19. GreenMachine

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    12,528
    Likes Received:
    6
    Pedro does..errr...did the same shit.
     
  20. GreenMachine

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    12,528
    Likes Received:
    6
    Don't forget he drugged and raped a girl.
     

Share This Page