This is bullshit of the highest order. Beltran had an AS year in 04 and is having an even better year this season. But Mike Cameron was more valuable then Beltran in 05. An AS player was still still less valuable then Cameron!
Yes we do know that he wouldn't have been a good starter. He has one pitch. Guys with one pitch are not good starters, no matter how good the pitch is. And no, I'm not basing the Clemens thing off anything but the simple fact that guys with his stuff, that is throwing mid to high 90's with the best splitter in the game, would make an excellent starter OR reliever. It's MUCH easier to be a reliever than a starter, which is why when players fail as a starter they are put in the bullpen. Cone made 29 starts in 2000, so you are wrong. He did only make 11 starts in '96, but he posted a 2.88 ERA, so I think he was fine. He WAS there for all 4. Key and Rogers were there in '96, but they were gone 2 years later, and from there Pettite, Cone, and Hernandez were constants. Wells was there one year, and then Clemens for the next two. Claim it all you want, there simply was NOT a lot of turnover at the top of the Yankees rotation from '96-'98. So every pitcher who wins a Cy Young in a season they don't deserve to is a HOFer? There is a HUGE difference in the Papelbon situation, and his success proves my point about good starters being able to dominate in the bullpen. The difference is that Rivera was put in the bullpen because he wasn't good enough to make the top 5 starters on his team. They had an established closer in Wetteland, and he wasn't put there specifically to be the primary set up guy. He grew into that role, but at first he was just thrown in there because he couldn't make the starting rotation. Papelbon would have easily made the rotation, but the Red Sox (at the time) had a surplus of starters and no closer. Since he had pitched out of the bullpen last year in order to keep his innings down, they felt he was more prepared to do it this year than Arroyo, Wells, or Clement. Next year he should go back to the rotation with Beckett and Lester, and Hansen will be closing.
96 was the year that Cone had the Anureysm in his arm, which is why he missed so many starts that year.
Yes, but that was early in the season. He came back and pitched just as well as he ever had. Junc's claim was that he was not himself, which isn't true. He also made his regular starts in the post season.
Yep. I believe he missed most of April and May. His come back game was against the A's where he was pitching a No-hitter and was taken out after his pitch limit. Joe did baby him for most of the summer and the playoffs but did turn to him for game 3 in Atlanta.
it's a little different talking about an established HOF player playing on great teams than a 1 October wonder playing meaningless baseball at Shea. I'm sure he wouldn't have tried to develop another pitch. he was taken out of the rotation late in the year and did not make a postseason start. He only pitched an inning and a 3rd the entire '00 postseason. he was in unifro, he was NOT a starter in the 2000 postseason. A CY season is a HOF season, all pitchers who win the CY have a HOF SEASON. Can they keep it up and have more big seasons? That is what will determine if they go but any award year is a HOF season. He was called up mid '95, he made a few starts and was sent down. later in the year he was back up and we had a set rotation so they moved him to the pen which wasn't strong. He became a key setup guy so they left him there in '96 rather than try him in the rotation again b/c he thrived as a reliever and in '96 he was dominant all year and they realized rather than re-sign Wette they could plug him in. His book was not written as a starter. It happened in May, he didn't come back until September. he missed most of the year. He pitched great in game 3 of the WS but battered by tex in the ALDS and wasn't great against Bal in the LCS. His last start was May 2nd and his return was September 2nd. He missed 4 months.
This thread is just hillarious. It's amazing how junc will never admit he's wrong. Not even arguing Seaver-Rivera, the fact that he has said a bunch of things that people have proved to be incorrect, yet he still tries to argue. If there was a most stubborn poster award, I think we know who would win that.
The fact that you seem to have taken this example seriously is pretty funny. I brought up an obviously absurd example to highlight how flawed the "logic" you were trying to use to prove the Rivera/Clemens stuff.
They do, and Clemens is a HOF pitcher. But, the fact that he won it in 2001 was just a joke. He was good, but not even a top 5 pitcher in the AL. It doesn't matter what all-time great stuff he had. He pitched 5 years with the Yankees, and only had 1 very good year. Why the hell does it matter that he won 2 CY's before, and 1 CY after? He didn't do that with the Yankees. It doesn't matter what his "stuff" was, the fact is his results show he wasn't a HOF caliber pitcher with the Yankees. He's the best relief pitcher of all-time, there is no question, but to say that a RELIEF PITCHER is more valuable than a STARTING PITCHER is hillarious.
What exactly has been proven incorrect? Just b/c there are more people on your side doesn't make you right. I'll take a guy who can have an impact on just about every game rather than 1 who has an impact every 5th game. I watched the Yanks win 4 titles, Seaver has ONE despite playing on some very good teams. It matters b/c it shows he was still at the top of his game. He wass still a top pitcher in the AL for the Yanks. He struggled the 1st year or 2 in the reg season but was as great as could be in the '00 LCS and WS yet Mariano was still more valuable. Let's look at the '00 WS, Clemens pitched a gem against the Mets. he pitched 8 innings of shutout ball w/ 9 Ks yet who was the WS MVP? Mariano Rivera and he only had 2 saves in the series yet he was the MVP. We are talking about the best reliever of all time and it's not close, we are not talking just some good relief pitcher. Over any other reliever I might agree but Mariano is different. When he's much mopre valuable out of the pen why would they start him? After what he did out of the pen in '95 it would have been silly to start him again. It's not that hard to find a quality starting pitvher but it's very difficult to find a big time closer and obviously he has been alot better than just a big time closer.
How can you possibly justify this statement? I suspect you'll weasel out of the argument by trying to debate the meaning of "quality starter" and "big time closer". A closer is NOT harder to find then a good starter, simply because every team around the league knows that starters are more valuable then relievers(except maybe the Reds). There's a reason that so many closers around the league are failed starters or were starters but are too old to pitch effectively in that manner anymore.
Would you agree it's easier to find an All-Star caliber pitcher than a closer as good as Mariano? we are not talking about just any closer, we are talking by far the best of all time. There are SP's close to, if not better than, Seaver but no one comes close to Mariano. Did you see the 2000 WS example? Clemens was dominant in his start and he won 1 game while mariano only had 2 saves yet Mo was the MVP- why was that?
No they weren't. Great closers but not close to Mariano. Eck had a 3.0 ERA in postseason, Goose had a 2.87 while Mariano in many more opportunities meaning many more chancs to give up runs has a .81 postseason ERA. That sepertaes him from anyone else.
Who cares? Rivera is the best closer of all time, so obviously its "harder" to find a closer as good as Rivera then an All-Star pitcher. Of course, this has nothing to do with their value, which is what we're discussing. It's easier to find a mediocre SP then it is to find one as bad as Jose Lima, too. Didn't Jeter get the 2000 MVP? I know he had a monster series.
Oops I got my years mixed up. Mo got the '99 WS MVP but the situations were similar. Clemens pitched 7 2/3 and gave up just 1 run in the series clinching game while Mo had just 2 saves and Mo got the MVP.
