Why do you keep bringing up things he did outside of his Yankee career? Do you not realize that has absolutely nothing to do with what he did as a Yankee? And you do realize you're killing your entire argument when you say "they never had a true Ace". You're admitting what we all know, that Clemens was not an "Ace" type pitcher with the Yankees, like Seaver was the majority of his career.
EXACTLY. Without those starters going 7 strong innings, Rivera would have been sitting in the bullpen with his thumb up his ass. Starters always are, always have been, and always will be more important than relievers.
I said we never had an Ace in the Championship seasons, Clemens became an Ace after '00. it's relevant showing that he was still great right before and after his yankee career. It shows he still ahd great stuff and could get the job done but he wasn't as effective a starter as Mo a reliever. The names of the starters kept changing but we kept winning. If a true dominant starter is more valuable then why did Seaver only win 1 title and only win 2 NL pennants while Mo has won 4 titles and 6 AL pennants? it's not like he had a bad staff around him either.
i've got to hand it to junc for being able to twist a debate so far from its intended purpose when he knows he's got no leg to stand on. the value of a reliever vs the value of a starter has somehow morphed into Roger Clemens career(either as a Yankee or before it, depending on the point junc wants to make) vs Tom Seaver's and the merits of their Cy Young seasons.
How are they comparable? A 126 ERA+ for a single season is not an "ace". 184 for a two year average (193 one year) is legendary. Your statement was Clemens' 2001 season was very comparable to any year that Seaver had in the 60's and 70's. That's obviously not true at all. Seaver had 10 seasons in his career better than Clemens in 2001, 7-8 of which aren't even close.
I didn't morph it I just pointed out we had a HOF pitcher and Mo was much more valuable then it got into Clemens vs. Seaver.
Put Rivera in the rotation and see him get absolutely lit up every five days. Put Clemens in the bullpen and see similar or better numbers than Rivera. The names really didn't change as much as you would like to think. All 4 title winning teams had Pettite and Cone in the rotation, and three of them also had Hernandez.
Yes, you had a HOF pitcher, but HE WAS NOT PITCHING LIKE ONE. That's the point. If he was, he would have been more valuable.
Fact of the matter is that Mo was a failed starter. The Yanks had plans for him to start, he sucked they put him in the pen he flourished.
If Clemens' entire career were the numbers he put up as a Yankee, he would have NO SHOT at the HOF. That's the point. He was a HOF pitcher, but he wasn't pitching like one with the Yankees.
This I have to take exception to since I do believe that Expos were around and not even close to being a good team then. The Braves were also pretty sucky around this time too. There have always been bottom feeders regardless of year.
Wow, this thread has just spiraled. Seaver was one of the greatest starters of all time. There is no denying it. I think a lot of the animosity is coming from the the attacks on Mo. You Met fans have to realize, he is a hero to Yankee fans. He has done significant work for our team, and been a key component in all of our runs since 96. In 96, he was the setup man for John Wettland. He did a fantastic job there. The next year, the Yankees did not bring back Wettland, and asked Mo to take over the closer role. Since then, he has saved over 400 games. Now maybe it's got a lot to do with you guys not seeing him pitch day to day. The guy is practically unbeatable. How many pitchers in the majors, National or American League, can face David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez and never blink? Mo can do that, with the game on the line. He never shows fear. He just throws two pitches better than anyone else in the league over the past 10 years. And it isn't just him shutting the door. One great example of his ability is the LCS a couple years ago. The famous "Aaron Boone" game. Mo pitched more than one simple inning to keep the score tied, until Boone could make "Yankee Magic." At least a dozen times a year Rivera is asked to pitch multiple innings, and he almost never blows the save. Against teams like Boston, and the Angels, that is a big feat. This argument will never be won or lost on either side. Yankee fans will never relent, and we can always fall back on 26 titles to support ourselves. Met fans love their team, no matter the history. (Not that I am downplaying Met history.) The fact is, we love our own team. That's what being a fan is about. The best arguments can come about if we get a repeat of 2000. Let's see another subway series, and let our teams decide who is the best this year. At least that we can argue constructively.
Seriously, what is wrong with you guys? Can't the Yankees/Mets one-upmanship stop until October? Can't you see that Shade is just trying to ruffle your feathers and that every response you make to such an insane arguement just makes you look like a fool?
I'm a Yankees fan, and even I can't help laugh at the thought that Rivera is more valuable than Seaver.
But I am not arguing that point. I am simply arguing that Mo is important. Not more important, just important to the team. Like I have said over and over in this thread. Seaver is quite possibly the best starter of all time. By the same token, Mo is probably the best closer of all time. It's apples and oranges.
:rofl: Come on get real. We don't know if Mo could have been a good Starter(he was upa nd down in '95 when he got a chance) and he was lights out after they moved him into the pen for the '95 stretch run so they kept him there. Are you basing Clemens off 1 relief stint last year in the postseason? Let's not forget that Clemens was not really a big game pitcher until recently while mo has been since day 1. Cone wasn't Cone in '96, he was just back from missing about half the season and Cone wasn't in the rotation in 2000. The only guy in it for all 4 was Pettitte. We had starts from Pettitte, cone, Rogers, Neagle, Key, Clemens, El Duque, Wells- that's alot of starters in 4 seasons. They had some great starts, some good starts and some poor starts but the constant was mariano out of the pen who was getting the job done every night. HOF pitchers don't win Cy Young's? he wasn't a faild starter, he was up and down as a rookie starter but once he was put in the pen they relaized how valuable he was. If papelbon doesn't go back to the rotation and becoms an every year big time closer will you say he was a failed starter? Mo went to the pen for the '95 stretch drive and was outstanding so they left him there. You guys don't seem to understand he had his HOF stuff which was proven by 2 CY's right before, 1 CY while there and 1 right after. A picher w/ all-time great stuff was still less valuable than Mo. I don't know what you have been watching the last 10 years. All you have to do is look at the results to see who has been more valuable.
