Come on now. I love Mo as much as the next Yankee fan, but a SP like Seaver is far more valuable than a RP like Rivera.
Who was more valuable as a Yankee- Clemens or Rivera? Clemens is every bit as good as Seaver and yet mo was more valubale than Clemens. We had grat teams but no one player was more valuable to the Yanks than Mariano Rivera during our latest dynasty.
Clemens with the Yankees was nowhere near the pitcher he was with Boston early on, in Toronto, in Houston the past couple of years, and nowhere near the pitcher Seaver was. If you'd argue Clemens in his peak years or Rivera, then you definitely take Clemens.
Now you're just embarassing yourself. Clemens with the Yanks wasn't half the pitcher that Seaver was for the Mets. A more apt comparison for Clemens time with the Yanks would be a guy like Al Leiter.
The guy was coming off 2 CY's, he won a CY w/ the Yanks and won another the year after he left us. Clemens was still at theop of his game as a Yank. I am in no way taking anything away from an all-time great in Seaver but if I had a choice I take Mariano, I think he's been more valubale tot he Yanks than Seaver was to any of his teams. Mariano is w/o question the bst closer of all-time, Seaver is in the discussion for best starter of all-time.
Of the 4 CY's you mention, only 1 came as a Yankee (one that he really didn't deserve.) Your argument was Clemens AS A YANKEE. He never had a season here with an ERA under 3.50. Not a single year with the Yankees did he dominate like Seaver did for a 12-14 year stretch. That's true, but since SP is more valuable than RP, a top 5 all-time SP is better than the #1 closer.
Really? Last I checked the 2 years before he came to the Yanks he won Cys, he wona Cy w/ the Yanks and won another one after he left the Yanks. the 3 in Tor and NY were in a much tougher league in a much tougher ballpark for pitchers than the old NL and Shea. Clemens has been as great as ever the last 10 years. When did Al win a CY? let alone 4 since '97?
Seaver was great for closer to 10 years not 12-14 and Clemens was 20-3 in 2001 and had an epic duel in game 7 of one of the best WS of all time. I '99 and '00 his reg seasons weren't great but in the '00 postseason he was at his best in the LCS and WS and STILL MO was more valuable.
We won 4 WS in 5 years and never had a lights out, great SP. We had good, solid starting pitching but we didn't have any Guidry '78s on those teams- the 1 constant was Mariano. In '96 our top 4 was Pettitte, Key, Cone and Rogers, in '98 it was Pettite, Cone, Wells and El Duque, in '99 it was Pettitte, Cone, Clemens and El Duque, in '00 it was Clemens, Pettitte, El Duque and Neagle. Again we had very good SP, good depth in the rotation but in those 4 Championship seasons we didn't have any lights out pitchers.
Who cares? You were asking if Clemens or Rivera was more valuable _as a Yankee_ Your last statement is just an outright fabrication. Clemens career ERA is 3.12 and he didn't come close to that any of his seasons with the Yankees. His WHIP was also well above his career avg in his time with the Yanks.
He was still a top pitcher and won a CY for us. He didn't transition well to NY and struggled his first 2 reg seasons but the fact that he won 2 CYs the 2 years before he got here and 1 the year after he left shows he was still a great pitcher.
Seaver: 67 = 2.76 ERA 68 = 2.20 ERA 69 = 2.21 ERA 70 = 2.82 ERA 71 = 1.76 ERA 72 = 2.92 ERA 73 = 2.08 ERA 74 = 3.20 ERA 75 = 2.38 ERA 76 = 2.59 ERA 77 = 2.58 ERA 78 = 2.88 ERA 79 = 3.14 ERA 13 dominant seasons. For 13 straight years, he was dominate for 260-290 innings. W-L record is a worthless statistic, If I'm starting a team, I take the guy who had consecutive 15-11, 2.50 ERA seasons over consecutive 20-3, 3.50 ERA. He did more good than bad in the post-season, but he still wasn't anywhere near Seaver during that 99-03 period.
The CYs he won in Toronto are meaningless when talking about his value to the Yankees. You can say he was a great pitcher all you want, the results are he had an ERA with the Yankees of close to 4, nothing close to Seaver in his prime, which is the argument.
A 3.5 ERA in Yankee Stadium in 2001 is very comparable to anything Seaver had in the NL in the 60s and 70s. Remember what Clemens did when he left the AL? he had a 2.98 and 1.87 ERA in his next 2 years in the NL. It's ALOT harder pitching in the AL today compared w/ the NL at any time and the AL pre-DH.
Clemens won a Cy Young based on his rep and the idiot voters dazzled by his W/L record. Mussina, Buehrle and Garcia clearly had better seasons.
He ws still a top pitcher 3 of his 5 years in NY, his ERA is a little high but again that has more to do w/ the league. He was still a great pitcher and still has HOF #s his last 10 years pitching. regardless of that Mariano has by far been the most important Yankee pitcher, they never had a true Ace. It was always a depp, good rotation that kept the games close until we got to the pen and then Mo would close it out. He was more valuable than any SP could have been.
Dude, Yankee stadium is a honest ballpark, its not Coors. You AL fans have taking the offensive explosion of the last 10 years right to your head and completely forgot about history. The NL in the 60's and 70's had some of the all time great offensive players and teams for that matter.
What about the '75 CY voting? Randy Jones won 20, pitched more innings, had a lower ERA and better WHIP and yet Seaver won- on reputation perhaps? There were a few others more worthy than Seaver as well.
More fabrication. You might find the ERA+ statistic helpful in avoiding errors like this in the future. This stat is league and park adjusted and it provides a helpful thumbnail sketch of how "dominant" a pitcher was. Seavers best year was 71 where had a 1.76 ERA and the league average was 3.40 for an ERA+ of 193. Clemens 3.50 ERA was good for an ERA+ of 128.
I'm not saying the NL stunk but it's still easier facing a lineup w/ a pitcher in it and pitching at Shea than facing the lineups Clemens faced w/ a DH.
