Considering that Mariano failed as a starter early in his career, you can't accurately compare a HOF starting pitcher to a HOF reliever, which is why so few relievers are in the HOF
That's a fantastic rebuttle! It makes so much sense too! It's just not worth fighting about. It's an argument between the guy who is probably the greatest starter of all-time, versus the guy who is probably the greatest closer of all time. As far Ruth being a product of Boston, that's more than fair enough. We still have Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, the list goes on and on. But it's really not worth fighting about. The best fight is going to be in October when they face each other in the WS, just like 2000. I really want to see that. This Met team is much better than 2000's. While I don't think this Yankee team is as good as 2000, but I would still like to see it.
I agree it's not worth fighting about, but you've said all that needs to be said to conclude that Seaver was better. Seaver was an all time great starter, Mariano is an all time great reliever and that is the end of the story.
If Mariano was that good, he would have anchored the rotation for years, not been a "closer", he is a great reliever, probably the best, but no where in the league of a Seaver, Spahn, Gibson, Clemens, or any of the all time great starters. Hmmm, why didn't the Twins make Santana a closer, or Verlander. Oh that's right, Mariano was a failed stater who became a great "closer" Just because he is the best closer, doesn't mean he has anywhere near the value of a #1 starter ACE.
He didn't fail, he was moved to the pen. We don't know if he would have been a good SP or not but h IS the BEST reliever of all time and Seaver is not the best SP of all time so therefore I'd say Mo is the best pitcher of the 2. Mariano has been the single most important player in the latest Yankee dynasty and is w/o a doubt the best closer in the history of the game. he has been dominant since the '95 playoffs and has had to pitch the equivalent of another season and a half from all his postseason innins. Seaver was great but he held on way too long to get his 300th win, after about 9 or 10 years Seaver was no longer great. Mariano has ben great for over 10 years now. Who cares about the circumstances? The FACTS are he is the best closer of all-time and was the MVP of a team that won 4 titles in 5 years. In the postseason in 8 starts Seaver lost 3 games while in 72 appearances Mo has lost just once, in just over 61 innings Seaver has given up 19 earned runs while in over 111 innings Mo has given up just 10 earned runs. I don't care if Mo could or could not have been a great starter- in today's game the closer is as important, if not more, as a great starter and Mo has been a more dominant reliever than Seaver was a starter. Both all-time great pitchers but one stands just a bit higher.
Do you honestly believe that Rivera sucked too badly to be a starter, so they made him the greatest closer of all time? The reason that he doesn't start is because he never had the arm strength to go a ton of innings and because he only throws one pitch (until a few years ago he mixed in a 2 seamer.) Criticizing Mo for coming out of the bullpen instead of starting is totally ridiculous, and comparing him to a starter is equally insane. Most of these Yankees/Mets arguements are just mind bogglingly dumb.
You've said some crazy things junc but this might just take the cake. Was Mo more important then Schilling or Randy in 01? Was he more important then Beckett in 03? A top notch starting pitcher is ALWAYS more valuable then a top notch closer. And we're talking about the postseason here. In the regular season it isn't even a question. Billy Wagner hasn't had a meaningful save opportunity in 2 months.
Tom Seaver in 1969 He won his last 8 starts of the season, all complete games with 3 shutouts giving up a grand total of 8 earned runs in 8 games. That is just as valuable as a closer, sure.
I'll take 4 Championships over 2, he was the biggest key in our 4 titles while in '01 Ari had 2 HOF caliber SPs lead them and in '03 Beckett had a great series. Mariano has saved 34 postseason games and has been on the mound closing out THREE WS. That trumps a great stretch run in ONE season for Seaver.
Seaver 3 Cy Young's Mo none. Mo was never even in the top ten for MVP voting. Seaver was 2nd in 69 losing by a slim margin. Mo is a nice little pitcher, great for a reliever
More nonsense. We're not talking about the Yankees as a team, there's obviously more to a team then a SP or a closer. And in 01 yes Arizona did have 2 HOF SP's having great postseasons and they were BOTH much more valuable then Rivera. With these 2 Arizona was able to win the series even with a steaming pile of shit as a closer. It's simple, in a 7 game series a top starter is going to pitch 3 to 3.5 times as much as a closer. There can be no debate about which is more valuable. The "save" is a joke of a stat and while Rivera has certainly been great in the postseason, you can't seriously quote save numbers and think that you're making a point.
Now you guys are grasping at straws again. I stopped posting because I figured it would just die. But I'm not letting nyjunc go down without backup. You talk about a save being a joke of a stat? Is that why the Mets brought in Wagner? I can see how a Mets fan would think it was a joke, what with a name like Armando Benitez still in recent memory. Franco should not be used in the same breath with Mo. Franco pitched way too long, and while still effective, was too old, and had he not been a late inning guy, in the weaker league, would have been forced to quit much earlier.
Wagner was/is a horrific waste of money, as I stated many times before the Mets signed him. There's no way to justify spending that much salary on a closer, at least when you're supposedly working with a budget. If MLB had a salary cap you'd see closers being paid like kickers in the NFL, and justifiably so.
Oh goodie! Now is my chance to take a little tidbit of what someone wrote and shred it. There IS a cap in baseball. It's not a hard cap, so teams can break it, but pay back 50% of the amount over the cap to the league. And if closers were paid like kickers, Mo would get Vinitieri's money.
They don't give the Cy to relievers often, last year Mo deserved it but did not get it. It's hard to win as a reliver but i'd rather take an ALS and WS MVP over CY's, how many LCS and WS MVP's does Tom have? (hint- as many as you and I do) mariano has an effect on just about every Yankee win in postseason, a starter does not. I agree the save stats can be a joke BUT most of Mo'ss aves were legit and alot of times he pitched mroe than an inning and some of his best work was to keep the opponent scorelesss while we came back or into extras. there are "closers" and then there is Mariano.
