Wrong. It was Stick (with Cashman as his assistant). Steinbrenner was out of baseball (by order of the commissioner) when the core of the Yankee championship teams were put together. Cashman is a student of Stick. Much of the trouble you see from the current Yankees is the result of having two front offices trying to run the team from 2000-2005 and being stuck with weird trades and unmovable contracts. And unlike the Yankee GM's of the past, Cashman has an eye on the future. The reason the Yanks still have Cano, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Tabata, Kennedy, Horne, and the like in their system is entirely because of Cashman.
How can you write that and expect to be taken seriously? Watson was hired after the '95 season, the team was mostly in place. he made some great deadline deals but the core of the team was in place from Stick and George was suspended when that core was put in place. Stick and Buck built the dynasty and Cash maintainted it until george started poking his neck into the baseball side of things again and started handed out big $ for big names instead of doing it the way we were during the dyasty years. Are you saying these guys won't reneogiate b/c of Joe?:rofl2: :rofl2: That is one of the silliest comments you have ever made about Joe. Mo and posada LOVE Torre, ARod doesn't but if he played like this his first 3 years he'd love Joe too but b/c Joe had enough of ARod's failures and moved him down he hates Joe. Every manager makes mistakes and Joe isn't any different, he has a different style. he uses his gut more, you didn't mind when his gut brought us Championships while guys like Ricky Ledee, Jose vizcaino, Shane Spencer, etc... were coming through after Joe put them in but it hasn't worked as much the last few years yet we still have won every div title since 1998 and a big reason we haven't won a series the last 2 years is b/c of your favorite player Mr. April. He doesn't need to be defended, his record speaks for itself. By the way, didn't you stop watching yankee games this year? so how would you know what Joe is doing? Yep that's why we were winning Championships before Joe, oh wait we hadn't won a playoff series in 15 years. Exactly! good post Cappy and welcome to the board, we could use some more level headed Yankee posters.
I don't think so..Watson was GM from 95 to 98 when that team was assembled and nobody was signed then unless Steinbrenner said to sign them. Oh, and Steinbrenner was back by 1993. Watson signed Knoblauch, Martinez, Stanton, Wells, Irabu, Nelson, Girardi, Rogers, Soriano and others. I don't think anyone would argue that the Yankees wouldn't have won those championships without them. On the other hand, Clemens, Brosius and ElDuque did come in on Cashman's watch however Steinbrenner had a lot to do with Clemens and ElDuque at least. Cashman was also responsible for the total busts and wasted money on Kevin Brown, Giambi, Gordon, Lofton, Mondesi, Mussina, Neagle, Vasques, Chacon, Hammond, Lawton, Ventura, White, Witasick and of course Pavano too. Michael was responsible for drafting most if not all of the players that came up through the farm system though as well as signing Boggs, Cone, Key, Strawberry and Wettland. So while I will agree an argument can be made for both Michael and Watson, nothing good can ever be said about Cashman. I see Michael becoming the GM again after this year too if he wants the job.
No one is saying that Watson wasn't important... but let's get real, shall we? I mean, the Yankees wouldn't have won without the league average pitcher who was Hideki Irabu? Sorry, bud. I think you might get some people who would argue that. :lol: While some of those guys you mentioned were important, the REAL core that everyone talks about with Yankee championships are Bernie, Posada, Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera. Yankee farm products that under past GMs would've been traded away before they even saw any playing time at the major league level. Stick drafted that group... and kept them. That right there puts him leagues ahead of Watson's moves. The fact that you think Cashman was responsible for Giambi, and not Tampa/George is indicitive. As is your complaint about Moose was a "total bust." As is your complaint about Tom Gordon, who was more than solid. Let me guess, you're judging him completely on that ALCS. Your complaint about Chacon is also baffling, since without him, the Yanks don't win the division in 05. You DO realize Chacon tossed up a 156 ERA+ for them, right? And that he was acquired for peanuts? Nothing good can ever be said about Cashman? The only fan who would ever truly say that is a fan who doesn't WANT to say anything good about Cashman, and so is already fatally biased.
You're right on one thing there. I will never have anything good to say about Cashman. How you could is what's baffling. As far as Chacon's 12 wins in two years is concerned I would much rather have Irabu's 24 in the same time period.
Now I understand why you can never seem to make a decent argument. You only read bits and pieces of things, and pretend to know what you're talking about. 1) I flat out stated that the guys were going to be a problem resigning because of Cashman and that stupid Yankees policy of not renegotiating. I blamed Joe for creating an undesirable atmosphere to return to. That will be why these guys don't return "regardless whether their demands are met." 2) Joe did NOT "have enough" of ARod's "failures." Don't try to rewrite history when it is stil fresh in everyone's minds. Joe caved to the pressure created by the media and supported by the fans. When everyone was booing Alex, Joe finally caved and dropped him in the lineup. If you recall, Joe himself said it didn't matter where he hit Alex, he was still going to struggle until he fixed himself. 3) Don't pretend you know what I said about Joe Torre over the course of the mid-to-late 90s. I've NEVER liked Joe Torre, not from the day he was hired. I've always been a vocal opponent of him, INCLUDING when we were winning titles. I give credit to his coaches, especially Willie Randolph, as well as a great core team, for their success. Joe never needed to manage those teams. The starters went 7, then some combination of Mo, Wettland, Stanton, and Nelson mopped up the 8th and 9th. The bats in the lineup were built to manufacture runs. They were just flat out tough to beat. I could have managed those teams while sleeping, which is exactly what Torre did. 4) I'm growing tired of your rips on ARod. You're the only person left doing it. So either you're the only person who is right, or you're flat out wrong. I know the answer, but I don't think you do. Like I said, defend Torre's history over the past 6.5 years compared to Alex Rodriguez's over the same period. Who has been more successful overall during that timeframe? 5) As for assuming I'm not watching Yankees games, you're only showing just how little you even bother to pay attention before starting an argument. I've probably got more in-game posts than any other fan in the game threads. Whatever junc. I'm tired of arguing with you. You won't bother to defend your arguments, since we all know you don't have a defendable position. You'll continue to point to the Championships Torre won almost a full decade ago as proof that somehow he's a great manager. You'll ignore that he had a great core unit of quality hitters, top-tier pitching, and that he had a far superior coaching staff to what he has now. But you won't give an actual defense. You'll just keep saying Joe doesn't need defending. Neither did Herm, even though the same team he led into the toilet was resurrected and made the playoffs with the same core unit. But of course you always have Chad's shoulder to fall back on for that. It's just not worth arguing with you junc. You never have a decent argument, and you never bother to try to develop one. You're predictable, and you're wrong. Your arguments are the internet equivalent of Swiss cheese.
Baffling? You have Cano, Wang, Hughes, Tabata, Chamberlain, Kennedy, and Horne all still in our system. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. Those guys aren't still with us if Tampa... or possibly even Watson... are in charge. Cashman's made some horrid moves, too, of course... but to have NOTHING good to say just means you're so biased that your analyses lose credibility. Shit, George saddled us with Tony Womack. Cashman found a way to trade him and receive more than a bag of balls for him. That's something good right there. Okay, I'm kidding with that one (although I DO think it was amazing that anyone was able to get ANYTHING for Womack. God, he sucked.) But what about the David Justice trade? What about getting rid of Ventura and grabbing Proctor and Crosby in return? What about Claussen for Boone in the same deal (sort of)? What about getting Abreu for practically nothing? To have nothing good to say about him (or to qualify anything good you have to say about him) tells me more about your attitude toward Cashman than it does about Cashman's actual worth. Wins are a horrible, horrible metric by which to judge a pitcher. But if that's the kind of analysis you use, I can see why you hold the opinions you do. Although, Chacon's 12 wins came over the course of ONE full year (August 2005 - July 2006), not two. The 24 wins you're pointing to for Irabu came over two FULL seasons. So essentially, they were winning games at exactly the same pace. Whoops! But let's leave that aside for a moment... I can't believe that someone would really claim that it's some kind of unassailable fact that the Yankees would not and could not have won without Irabu, when he was nothing but league average... but a pitcher like Chacon was a "total bust" despite the fact that we really wouldn't have won the division in 2005 without him. How does that make sense? Chacon was FAR above league average while pitching for us in 05. Was it a fluke? Hell yes, but it was a good move at the time (unless you really miss the stellar talents of Eduardo Sierra and Ramon Ramirez), and it helped the Yanks big time. I'd hardly call a 2.85 ERA (with a 7-3 record) a "total bust."
Watson was GM in 1996 and 1997. Stick was let go/resigned after the 1995 season and Cash took over in 1988. George came back in 1993 and the core of the dynasty teams were already in place. Watson did NOT acquire Knoblauch or Soriano(and no one would argue the Yaks wouldn't have won Championships w/o Irabu and Soriano since we never won one w/ Soriano and Irabu did nothing to help us win), Cashman did. Watson did acquire Tino, Stanton, Wells, Irabu(is this a positive? and actually that was more George), Girardi, Nelson. Stick acquired Jeter, O'Neill, Pettitte, Rivera, Posada, Boggs, Key, Cone, Mendoza, Wetteland, Wickman, Leyritz, Ledee, Shane Spencer,Lowell .... I think that list beats Bob's list. Cash acquired Knoblauch, Brosius, Chili Davis, El Duque, Soriano, Clemens, Justice, Vizcaino, ... The man most responsible was Gene Michael and it's not close, Watson did a good job in his 2 years but Stick built it, Watson put the finishing touches on and cash took it to another level. Chacon's wins in 2005 helped us win a div title, Irabu never helped us win anything. You must have me cofused w/ yourself, my arguments are always solid. "I want Torre FIRED. I don't give a flying rat's ass how many games we win, I will STILL complain that he's a DOUCHEBAG. He's a TERRIBLE in-game manager, and an even worse motivator. Guys don't want to renegotiate, even if their demands are met? Seriously? So, in other words, ignoring this season, all-star caliber players refuse to negotiate with a team that at it's core should EASILY win the division, even if they get everything they ask for? WTF does THAT tell you?" How can thisbe read any other way than you talking about Torre? You were complaining about Torre and never mentioned Cashman. That whole post is about torre and Cashman isn't mentioned. Yeah b/c Joe always caves to the pressure of the media and fans:lol: and regardles of the reason ARod DESERVED to be moved down. The man had gone 11 straight postseason agmes at that point w/o an RBI. he was trying anything to shake it up. again which is why we won so many tile in the years before Joe. All those Championships, series wins, Joe just hopped on the gravy train. In case you forgt w were supposed to be doomed when joe took over, expectations were not high in 1996 and we won our 1st div title since 1981(and 1st real div title since 1980). As usual I am right. love what he's doing this year but he needs validation in october. I will not forget the first 3 years and his octobers here so no way would I give him more money. I would take him back under his current deal and that's it- MAYBE renegotiate and give him a few more mil but only as long as he didn't opt out and we'd lose Texas' help. I am only going by wha you have said repeatedly- that you can't watch this team anymore or b/c they are winning again now you can watch them? I won't defend my arguments? what?:lol: That's all I do. Instead of attacking others look in the mirro, you have NO argument about Joe through the course of his time here, you defend a guy who has one 12 straight RBI-less games in october yet bash a guy that led us to 4 Championships- that's all we need to know. he doesn't ned defending, his record speaks for itself. I dfended Herm for years, we were in the toilet in 2005 b/c of injuries and injuries alone. We were mostly healthy in '0 and won 10 games, we were mostly healthy in '06 andwon 10 games- see a pattern? If you can't post a decent argument don't bother to write these long winded posts that do nothing to prove your case. That's an even bigger key under Stick, he didn't trade Benrie, Jeter, Mo or Andy when he easily cold have. If george wasn't suspended we would ahve kept dealing off young prospects forolder big names and never would have seen the latest dynasty.
You misunderstood. I never thought Irabu was great at all. He was, however, cheap, and for two years got the job done. Also, I should have said bust and/or a waste of money. That list wasn't meant to say they were all busts. I do think no one on that list has done a thing of any value to get us another championship and an exclamation point is made on Mussina who has been a waste of money and now given a two year extension by Cashman to boot.
Irabu wasn't cheap, we had to pay San Diego millions to just get his rights and for a guy who never did a thing in th Majors we paid him about $15 mil which was aot 10 years ago for a guy who turned out to be a major bust. What job did he get done? He played on 2 of the bst teams of all time in '98 and '99 and never started a postseason game b/c his manager didn't trust him. He never won a big game for us. He contributed nothiong to those teams.
I know you didn't say Irabue was great. You did, however, include Irabu in the following statement, "Watson signed Knoblauch, Martinez, Stanton, Wells, Irabu, Nelson, Girardi, Rogers, Soriano and others. I don't think anyone would argue that the Yankees wouldn't have won those championships without them." You explicitly said that the Yankees wouldn't have won without Irabu (and those other players). And I think that's ridiculous. Championships are basically (although not entirely) crap shoots once you're in the playoffs. Getting to the playoffs is the important thing, since it gives you a chance. Shit, if Tony Clark doesn't hit that ball TOO HARD in the 04 ALCS, it's not a ground rule double, an extra run scores instead of being forced to hold at third, and the Yanks likely go on to sweep the Cards for the 04 WS and all of this is moot. Variance. Point being, baseball is a game that involves a LOT of variance over the short term. So to say Irabu was a good pickup because he was cheap and got the job done (the "job" presumably being winning a WS title)... to say in your previous post that he was, in fact, essential to getting the job done is ad hoc reasoning. It's all done after the fact. They won, so they must have been good for the team. The current group hasn't won, so they must not be as good. Are you also going to say that A-Rod hasn't done anything for the Yanks and you'd rather have Scott Brosius playing third base because he "did something of value"? I don't see what your issue is with Mussina. Granted, he's a frustrating pitcher to watch at times, and I don't think he pitched as well as he was paid... but to say he "hasn't done a thing of value" is a huge exaggeration. He's been, at worst, league average, and generally much much better. He's been a hard-luck loser in the postseason, for the most part. Again, I think this is ad hoc. You're just putting together certain pieces to fit the view you want instead of taking all of the pieces as they are and creating an accurate picture.
Junc you live in a twisted little world where you truly believe you win every argument simply because you say so. I'm tired of arguing with you, so I'm walking away from it. If you want to pretend you've somehow "won again" which is bullshit, go right ahead. It's actually boring the hell out of me now. -------------------------- Cappy, I have to disagree with you about Moose. IMO, at best he's been a league average pitcher. He's never been good in big games. He's a #4 guy who's gotten by on name recognition his whole career. -------------------------- As far as Cashman, I more disagree with Don than agree. My problem with him stems from recent actions. The first of which was him taking the same sort of stance the Chargers' GM took with Phillip Rivers. Basically, "I brought him in here and damn it all if he isn't going to succeed." The Rockies were ready to deal before the season. We could have erased the mistake, but no, Cash wanted to prove he made a good move. Well, we see how that worked out. I also wanted him to dump Abreu. It's still wait and see there though. I'm also very pissed off about the way Mo and Jorge were handled this year. I don't care what team policy has traditionally been, you have to make exceptions sometimes. Cash told Rivera and Posada to perform this year, then come back and talk when it gets cold again. Well, nice job Brian, maybe after their work is done this year they'll make their cases elsewhere. He doesn't get the blame for ARod probably leaving, the local media can thank themselves for that. Cashman would immediately make up for his mistakes in my eyes if he manages to get him to resign before the season ends.
Moose's ERA+ with the Yankees: 2001: 142 2002: 108 2003: 129 2004: 98 2005: 101 2006: 125 2007: 93 Career ERA+: 124 So far, his two worst (complete) seasons with the Yanks, 2004 and 2005, both of which involved injuries, show him as the very definition of league average (ERA+ = approximately 100). His career ERA+ is better than David Cone. Better than Pettitte. Better than Guidry. Better than Glavine. Better than Blyleven. Better than Key. A LOT better than David Wells. Is he one of the "all-time greats"? No. But Moose has been a damn good pitcher in his career, and has been pretty damn good for the Yankees, too. (I can't post links yet, but baseball-reference.com has the career Adjusted ERA+ leader list.) Moose's career postseason ERA is 3.40. Everybody's favorite "Big Game Pitcher" Andy Pettitte's career postseason ERA? 4.08. Like I said before, I really think this is a misperception based on the fact that Moose has been a hard luck pitcher in the postseason, who will have bad games, but gets shafted when he throws well, too. He'll pitch well, but the team won't hit, or it will come in a series the team loses. I also think his reputation is suffering from the What Have You Done For Me Lately selective memory of Yankee fans, who just look at the past two postseason performances, which have admittedly been lousy, and then apply that to his entire career.
Look I'm not trying to string Moose from a tree. He's as capable a #4 guy in this rotation as we can ask for. I'll concede that he's normally average, it's a fair enough point. However, it doesn't change the fact that he was brought here to be an ace. And he's always been far from that.
He was an ace as a 32 year old, the tip of his peak years, and the first of his Yankees contract. And, like most pitchers in their 30s, he's declined since then. Just because the Yankee bring in older starters and expect them to be aces doesn't mean it's justified. You can't fault Mussina for playing within the bounds of his ability.
Sorry to harp on the point, but actually, no, he's not "normally average." He's been average at worst. He's normally above average. That's sort of the point of ERA+. Always? If 2001 isn't ace material, I don't know what is (second best ERA+ in the league). 2003 might not be Johan Santana-esque numbers, but he put up the best numbers of the Yankee staff, by far. (Please keep in mind that Moose was outpitching Clemens, Pettitte, and Wells during these seasons.) 2006 was a more than solid year, again with the best numbers on the staff (even better ERA than Wang). He might not be putting up a flashy K/9 > 10 or anything, but the dude's had some very good years for the Yanks. And not doing what he was brought here to do isn't what prompted my last response. It was your comment that "he's a #4 guy who's gotten by on name recognition his whole career." That's simply not true. He was an ace when he came here. An ace who has declined in ability, yes. But you can't pretend that he's some league-average scrub who people undeservedly think can pitch. He can (or could) and has pitched at very high levels for a long while, and has pitched solidly for the Yanks.
I'm not disagreeing with him having pitched adequately, or even solidly. As LTS said, he can't be faulted for pitching within the bounds of his ability. Perhaps I give him a raw deal, based on his performance while gettng less run support as you said. Honestly, I can't recall specifics at this point. Even more honestly, I just don't care. I just want the Yankees to keep winning ballgames. The one thing I'll never change my stance on though, is Joe Torre. I sincerely believe he does not deserve to wear a MLB uniform as a manager.
My twisted little World backs up everything w/ facts unlike yourself. You start whining I misinterprted a post yet nowhere in that post is brian Cashman mentioned and the rest of the post whines about torre. I don't need to tell people I won b/c anyone reading knows who presented the better argument and who is running away w/ his tail btw his legs.
