Sorry, until they put GM next to a coach's title, he may have had "input" but he did not actually acquire the players. Moreover, doesn't the scouting department get any props in your fairy tale scenario? No, it's Mangini doing everything: he scouted them, he put together the big board, he worked them out, and then, finally, he picked them. And, again, somehow Vernon Gholston is missing from the list. Did they only draft the successes, although I'm not sure I remember Joe Haden playing for the Jets? Or the draft positions of the teams when these picks were made. Or the other picks that he supposedly made. Or how many drafts it took to compile this "murderers row" of SEVEN whole players? I mean, wow, you've pretty much cherry picked from how many drafts and how many teams--none of which are playoff teams at present--to get this list? question: If Mangini is such the great talent evaluator, why hasn't he EVER employed in that capacity for any NFL team? Two reasons: 1) he's not. 2) people remember Vernon Gholston, even if you don't or won't. I mean, seriously, we're arguing Mangini at this point? His job with the jets was to coach. He failed. Then he went to Cleveland TO COACH and failed.
Does draft position matter at all in your world of "Mangenius"? Does cost matter? Cause, if I recall, Revis was a trade up, no? Do draft needs and the availability of players that fit those needs matter? And, finally, is the GM have ANY responsibility for the draft and free agent signings? Or is it all the head coach? Cause, really, in your scenario why even HAVE a GM? He's a figurehead for the head coach. And if that is true, then without a doubt BOTH the present GM and the coach need to be let go.
And four lousy seasons afterward. And, didn't Rex Ryan bring along some Baltimore refugees and weren't some of the important players--Faneca, Woody, Bart Scott-- free agents?? Again, hitting on low round draft choices is EASY, especially if you choose early and/or trade up. You know, unless you're Mangini (well, Tannenbaum really) who busted on the SIXTH choice. Show me a 'Mangini' late round gem or four. That's where championships are won.
Revis was a trade up? So were Sanchez and Greene under Rex. Rex had high picks, let's not act like he was picking bottom of the round every year. Sanchez was 5th overall, Coples was 16th. And nobody is saying the GM doesn't do anything, or that Mangini or Rex were picking those players entirely on their own, we are just saying they had a lot of input into that. If you are the GM, you are overseeing the process, the scouts present detailed analysis, but then it's up to the coaching staff to look through that analysis and decide who they like and who fits their system well. The GM can overrule that, but generally speaking you want to get your coaches the players they like.
whew...Ok, I'll give you that the Sanchez move was a stretch...and it turned out to be a bad one long-term. But, that pales in comparison to the Gholston selection. At least Sanchez participated in TWO AFC Championship game runs. Gholston? never contributed anything. And, IF the GM is deferring to the coach on decisions, he's not very good, especially if it's deferring to two 1st-time head coaches with virtually no history of successful talent evaluation. And in your more realistic scenario here, it's most the GM (overseeing the process) and the scouting department (putting together the list) that shoulder the burden. And rightly so, the head coach shouldn't have time to do much more than offer advice on the list AFTER it has been put together. The GM, of course, should sometimes overrule the head coach because the GM is responsible for the long-term talent acquisition strategy and health of the team. Coaches are game managers. GMs are TEAM managers. And I'm not sure Revis was a trade up. I'm pretty sure Harris was.
Virtually as far removed as Mangini's role in player acquisition for either Cleveland or the Jets. Just so we're clear, you mentioned SEVEN players worthy of mention from two teams in how many years of 'GMing' for Mangini? AND you left out the spectacular bust. Your praise is probably the reason he's nobody's HC or GM.
He was fired after 2/3 winning seasons here and then inherited a mess in Cleveland and got canned after just 2 years. I think he got a raw deal, we'll agree to disagree. He's currently TE coach for SF. I bet he will resurface again down the road.
I don't expect Rex to do it. I expect the GM and the scouting department to do it. You know, the people hired to do so...And the reason I want Idzik AND the scouting department gone. I want Rex gone because his time as a coach is over and the results of the last 4 years say so.
Clearly, you're in love with Mangini, so I hope that works out for you and him. 2/3 winning seasons, but ONE playoff season and ZERO playoff victories. But, no, he got a job he didn't actually deserve, based on the need to "steal" from the Jets rival. and he didn't handle it well here or in Cleveland. Newsflash: People get canned quickly when they perform very poorly, because nobody wants to admit they made a mistake quickly after making a hiring. And, really, doesn't the record speak for itself?
I'm indifferent towards Mangini. You seem pretty asshurt about that though. I like Rex a lot but understand he's run out of time. What I find curious is how solid Tannebaums drafts were when EM was here and how shitty they wound up being under RR. I think it's illogical to approach draft evaluation without considering the coaching staff, scouts and front office all coming together for it. Why did Rex attend the combine every year if he isn't doing any evaluating for the drafts?
Again, the draft is not UNDER RR. It's under John Idzik and Mike Tannenbaum. And the drafts weren't ALL THAT otherwise we wouldn't have needed all these significant free agents: Faneca, Woody, Tomlinson, Scott, Edwards, Santonio Holmes, am I missing anyone? All these guys were Free agents, not home-grown products.
He's not uninvolved, but it's the responsibility of the scouting department and the GM. You DO remember Bill Parcells talking about "buying the groceries..." don't you? That's why Parcells left NE, because he wanted to be GM/HC because it's the GM who is responsible for running the draft and overseeing the scouting department.
You keep bringing up Gholston like it means anything by itself. Newsflash, every team in the NFL whiffs on first round picks, even really early ones. There are no certainties in the draft, and if you go over past NFL drafts, you will see tons of busts in early first round. So Gholston by itself doesnt mean anything, you can only look at Mangini's drafts in totality, and then they look pretty good. Unlike Rex's. And also, I don't think that's how the GM-coach relationship works at all. The GM is the high end manager, he sets the overall team strategy and then based on that, selects appropriate coaches, scouting staff, etc, and delegates the work to them. But when it comes to the draft, he is just one voice among the many, and although he does have the final say on things, it is unusual for a GM to go against the coaches evaluation. As far as Revis, I was just quoting you, so...
It DOES mean something by itself. Every team has whiffs, but you can't rightly cite how good a person is picking players and completely discount a huge failure like that, especially when the body of work you're referencing is as small as Mangini's. And, clearly, you have not read about the Lawrence Taylor selection, where George Young, the GM for the Giants, personally scouted him several times. Sure, in your Mangini/Jets fantasy world, the GM may be someone who doesn't know shit about talent evaluation and lets the HC run things, but that's not how most successful teams acquire talent. The HC should be too busy coaching and overseeing the coaching to actually run the scouting department and have the vision for the long-term success of the team.
