Which QB should the Jets draft in 2018

Discussion in 'Draft' started by dmw, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Cman65

    Cman65 The Dark Admin, 2018 BEST Darksider Poster

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    The next QB they manage to develop will be their first. I'll believe that when I see it and not a second before. History is not on the Jets side when it comes to Qb development. Until they commit to Qb development in a meaningful way, and we're not talking "mentoring" either, they'll continue to destroy whatever potential these kids have by making them sit for years behind a Geezer looking for his last paydays. Neglecting the development of young QB talent is tantamount to career homicide and the Jets are known to be young QB career killers. You can choose to believe that every QB the Jets have drafted since Namath except for 4 have sucked, or you can believe there's a problem with the Jets' program of Qb development. I've already made my choice.

    When it comes to the Jets, I'm from Missouri.. I'll leave the "hope" and "blind faith"stuff to "real fans".
     
    #41 Cman65, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  2. Mainejet

    Mainejet Well-Known Member

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    Count me in for Baker Mayfield. His lack of height does not scare me and he's achieved more at Oklahoma than anyone could possibly ask for. He's probably going to win the Heisman and compete for a national championship to boot. Not to mention the Jets will not have to trade up to get him.
     
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  3. Walt White

    Walt White Well-Known Member

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    Didn't like Chad? I'll wait and see how this plays out without dumping the whole history by some non-hacking fans on Mac and Bowles. That's defeatist in my view. But if some fans want to wallow in that that's their choice. Have at it.
     
  4. Cman65

    Cman65 The Dark Admin, 2018 BEST Darksider Poster

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    You're entitled to your view as am I.. As long as the Jets carry the name and wear the uniform of JoeWillie, they carry the history and the legacy too. IF and When Macc drafts a functional QB and Bowles manages to develop him, I'll change my view but they will have to actually do it. Not pay lip service to it. Oh, and Chad is one of the Lucky Four... Chad, O'Brien, Todd and Namath IMO. Sanchez managed to get to two AFCCG's but lost both and then buttfumbled his way out of town but to their credit, at least Tanny and Rex actually traded up to get him. Every other nameless kid that had the misfortune of being drafted by the Jets to play QB obviously sucked. The two most recent being Mackenberg and Petty. Just look at all the All Pro QB's the Jets have developed since 2000 as proof. See, I even subtracted 35 years and the result is still the same.

    You don't get to ignore the past when it comes to the Jets. This team has been around since 1965 and started in 1960 as the Titans. If Macc and Bowles can't handle it, they should move on. This isn't some expansion team that just came into the league. These are the New York Jets and you take everything that comes with it good and bad. Past, present and future..
     
    #44 Cman65, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  5. Walt White

    Walt White Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. But that history had no say on what happened with Petty. If Petty was/is good enough he'll play. His situation had nothing to do with what happened with the position going back to previous eras or regimes. He was a long shot 4th rd. pick with possible career backup possibilities. That's all he ever was.
    Nor does the past dictate what will happen this spring. They get to roll the dice again and we'll see. That's how it goes in sports. Poor ol' Jets fans are not alone.
     
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  6. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Walt and 101:

    Read this article that Zach posted in the Draft section:

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-minnesota-vikings-whether-re-signed-2017-nfl

    and pay attention to the part where they talk about how Goff and Keenum did under Jeff Fisher and his CS:

    "It's telling that the two biggest quarterback surprises of the 2017 season were on the same team last season and didn't play very well. Keenum began his 2016 campaign as the starter for the Rams before giving way to first overall pick Jared Goff. Keenum was mediocre, and Goff was worse. The difference in their combined numbers from 2016 to 2017 is truly staggering:

    Alex Smith before failing to improve Sam Bradford amid injuries. Cignetti was replaced in 2016 by Rob Boras, the team's tight ends coach, who hadn't called plays since he served as the offensive coordinator for a below-average UNLV offense in 2003. The quarterbacks coach in that two-year stretch was NFL veteran Chris Weinke, who previously worked at the IMG Academy and hadn't coached for a team at the college or professional level.

    Things are different this season. Goff's breakout under new coach Sean McVay in Los Angeles is certainly no secret. In Minnesota, though, Keenum has succeeded under offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur, who was overmatched as a head coach in Cleveland. As an offensive mind, however, Shurmur's résumé includes seven years as a quarterbacks coach with Andy Reid in Philadelphia, a promising debut season with Bradford in St. Louis and three years as the coordinator of an above-average offense under Chip Kelly in Philadelphia."

    So pardon me if I don't accept that Todd Bowles and his CS know how to evaluate and develop QBs. If you want to believe that, fine, but I think there's a chance they could be poor judges of QB talent.
     
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  7. Walt White

    Walt White Well-Known Member

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    So does that mean we throw out the success that Fisher had with Steve McNair?
    And I'm supposed to infer that Goff would not have gotten better this year if Fisher stayed or that Goff would have been better his first year without Fisher, and it wasn't just the normal maturation process by a blue chipper that adjusted in his own time on a fucking team Fisher built from the ground up for years before that?
    So you're gonna compare an historically high rated Blue Chip QB prospect with a 4th rd. long shot from the program he came from? And what team actually surrounds those guys from year to year is not a consideration? And all that is supposed mean something regarding Bowles?
    C'mon man, pardon me if I say that's ridiculous in every way.

    I don't know why you're including me in this, and I don't know what Bolwes is, but try again because that is just laughable
     
    #47 Walt White, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  8. LAJet

    LAJet Well-Known Member

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    1000% on the money. I can attest first hand from watching most all Ram games as to what Fisher did with the QB position and the team in general. It was an absolute developmental mess. People here said the same BS about Goff. No pocket presence, stared at the receivers, blah., blah, blah.
    Enter a real smart, young HC that understands offense, particularly QB performance and the rest is history.
     
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  9. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Jackson over Mayfield? Gotta totally disagree on that.

    If he's not ready to start day 1, he's not a FQB prospect? Seriously? Tell that to Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and numerous other great NFL QBs from history.
     
    #49 NCJetsfan, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  10. While I agree that not starting year 1 is the furthest thing from eliminating the notion of a prospect reaching “transcendent level”..the jets selecting someone who needs time before starting does cause me to pause. Not bc of personal impatience..im actually ok w a guy like Josh Allen who will need time to develop but clearly is oozing w talent & will only be denied snaps for so long.

    Rather, I worry that the fan base will not be patient given that Petty & Hack both sat w dreadfully low returns to date. I also worry that it plays into Todd Bowles pigheaded nature regarding playing young QBs.Is he actually gonna give the green light in a reasonable timeframe? Everything to date suggests probably not.

    I’m on board w them selecting any legit 1st round QB as long as the value isn’t cuckoo crazy & Bowles actually acknowledges the notion of said player getting meaningful snaps early.Im not gonna be fussy at this point bc Anything is better than what we currently have & the guy has to be the right fit.Fit often gets determined behind the scenes during predraft interviews,whiteboard & the likes.Those aren’t things we have access to & I respect that.That said it does seem like a much healthier idea w much cleaner lines to select a QB who can start day 1
     
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  11. James Hasty

    James Hasty Well-Known Member

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    With two second rounders we have the luxury of trading back up into the bottom of round one for Stidham if we don't think he will be there for us at the top of round two.
     
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  12. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I like him too..

    Hey Main..what happens if Toilet cesspools us to 4-12? You and I know that's a real possibility

    What's your opinion of Darnold/Rosen?
     
  13. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't mean you have to throw out any previous success he had, but previous success doesn't guarantee future success - you still need to work for it, and not be blinded by your own bias. In this case at least, Fisher appears to have completely screwed up his evaluation and development of two very good QBs, making them look like complete busts. And of course this isn't the only example of a coach not recognizing what he had, just a recent one.

    And sure, MAYBE Goff would've gotten better anyway, with or without Fisher, but Fisher left and Goff improved, and Keenum went to play for another team and coach, so that would be a fair assumption.

    As for where they were drafted, how many here (are you one of them?) keep claiming that it doesn't matter where you draft a QB...you can find a FQB in ANY round? It's entirely possible that Petty has been underestimated, and mishandled, and could develop into an All Pro. I'm not saying this is likely, but the fact is we really don't know based on what we've been able to see. There was a guy once who was cut from the Steelers because they didn't think he had a strong enough arm...went on to hook up with the Packers and played pretty well for them...guy's name was Starr, you might've heard of him. The point is that the difference between success and failure at the pro level can be pretty thin, and affected by a lot of things beyond the individual player.

    And I included you because you keep saying that Petty is trash, and you seem to base that on what Bowles has said about him. I'm saying that maybe Bowles doesn't know what he's talking about, and I offered some basis for that belief by including the Fisher example. If that doesn't sway you in any way to even consider that Bowles might be wrong, okay, I've said what I needed to and we'll agree to disagree.
     
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  14. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I give a slight edge to Jackson over Mayfield because of the level of competition Jackson has faced, and he seems more solid character-wise. But both are hard to evaluate for me because their game doesn't easily translate to the pros - iow, they're going to have to adapt and make adjustments to how they played in college, and it's hard to know how well, or if they can at all, do that.

    I should've been more clear with the bit about if they can't start right away they're not a FQB. What I meant is that if you took Aaron Rodgers, or Brady or any of the other greats and DID play them right away, they surely would've struggled, but likely would've succeeded eventually anyway. They had the luxury however of being able to sit and learn without that pressure. Looking at it from the other end, if you take a guy and he can't beat out a mediocre QB for the starting job, then he's probably not a FQB.
     
  15. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    If his stock keeps rising he's not going to last until the end of Round 1 either. If Macc thinks he's the guy he needs to pounce with the first pick.
     
  16. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought that you would have liked Mayfield. He has the same fiery, competitive nature that Rosen has. Despite his size limitations, he has played pretty darn well.

    I don't think Jackson will fair well in the NFL at all. IMO his frame is just to narrow and small, and even though he's mobile, fast and elusive, unless he can be like CuMar was and avoid the big hits, I don't think he will stay healthy long in the NFL. As you know, avoiding big hits at QB, is impossible. He has shown improvement, and as you said, his WRs haven't helped him much, but his low completion percentage really concerns me.

    As for your last sentence, I agree in principle if you're speaking in generalities. If you're referring to the Jets' situation, however, I don't. Petty never had a chance to beat out McCown in the competition this year. In spite of being a hard worker and the first one at the Jets' complex every day, Gailey and Patullo evidently put no time in to working with him, or they were just inept at their jobs. Don't forget that McCown had a ton of experience playing in a WCO, which is a very complex offensive system, and Petty was having to learn it for the first time. In spite of that, with the exception of OTAs and early in TC, it didn't affect his accuracy, decision making or play. In spite of what a knucklehead or two on this site say, he was starting to show a command of the offense, was going through his progressions, making good decisions, making accurate throws, and moved the team and put up points on about every drive he played in preseason. I don't know if it was Petty's getting injured last season and missing practice time or the interceptions he threw when he did finally play, but it's evident to me that Bowles just doesn't like him for some reason. IMO Petty's much better than Hack, yet Bowles seems to like Hack just fine and gave him plenty of opportunities. That may be because Hack was a 2nd round pick and he felt he had to with Mac looking over his shoulder.
     
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  17. Peebag

    Peebag Well-Known Member

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    No one knows that with the sample size we have on him
     
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  18. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I DO like Mayfield, but I also have concerns. He's a gunslinger, and fearless, but he doesn't have the arm that Mahomes did, nor his size (although that's not a big difference), so he may try forcing throws into windows or situations that were easy to complete in college, but at the pro level will be easy pickings. And his quickness to let his emotions get out of hand is troubling. Can he learn to control them? Sure, but that won't happen overnight...probably over the course of a few years. In the meantime, how many games will he lose because he loses control? It's a very fine line between the never-give-up spirit and forcing things when they just aren't there. Are we Jets fans capable of living with the growing pains he'll have? Speaking for myself, if Rosen and Stidham are both gone and we take Mayfield, I wouldn't be upset, I would adjust my expectations. I would hope that Macc somehow finds a stud RB in FA or the draft to help take the load of Mayfield's shoulders, which I think would pay big dividends.

    As for Jackson, the kid is a monster athlete, and I haven't heard of any off-field or character concerns. He's a winner too, and while he plays on a very good team, it's clear he makes them better, not the other way around. My only concern is one that I have about all "dual threat" QB's: Will they learn to not rely on their feet so much and hang in with the play so they can make much bigger gains through the air? From what I've seen, Jackson does this, and seems to prefer the air route vs. the turf, so I'm confident he'll do this in the pros. Still, I prefer Rosen and then Stidham.

    And yes, my point about a QB not being able to beat out someone who's mediocre, was NOT in reference to Petty's situation because, like you, I don't feel Petty got a fair chance to compete. I was talking in terms where there's a REAL competition, level playing field, and the guy can't beat out the others.
     
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  19. Walt White

    Walt White Well-Known Member

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    I just wanna know, have you ever watched Petty play? The last time we spoke about Petty you claimed Petty would bring more mobility, and a running the ball option, to the table over McCown. That will never happen. Even if Petty ever came close to having the career McCown has had, which is unlikely. So that makes me think that a lot of your points are based on things other than actually watching the two QB's, and you're just trying knock Bowles for the sake of that.

    My opinion is based on what I see, not on something Bowles once said, ever, okay. Also a rudimentary understanding of how things work can be of help. Which I question with you.

    I bring up the Petty stuff because it's actually pretty brutal seeing some people imagining things that aren't even true or based on facts to prove they have a clue why Petty not playing means anything other than he's just another guy that's not good enough. On a list a mile long, that fans think should play based on very little real knowledge, along with Simms, Clemens, and all the rest.

    And the last thing is it's always some guru that can push the magic button that Bolwes is too stupid to that would prove Petty is being mishandled. The dude was not a good QB prospect so bringing up Goff and Rodgers is a waste of time. Those guys are just flat out better than Petty and it has nothing to do with Bowles.
     
    #59 Walt White, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  20. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I've seen Petty play, not in person, and not every snap, but I've seen enough to believe he would be as good or better than McCown at this point. Aside from trusting in the "genius" Bowles, what else do you base your opinion about him on?
     
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