Welcome to the Jets, Quinnen Williams.

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by abyzmul, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    This is another reason I think the GW for HC thing is bogus. He has had us playing good despite lack of talent/injuries. And I know QW is a rookie and it takes time . But some of his choices are questionable for sure. I like the rotation idea keeps our player fresh. But at least let him play consecutive plays. Get warmed up. He switches them in and out a lot.
     
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  2. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    You're right on all fronts. He just should be used better. Maybe they're easing him into it though.

    I don't fully understand why the Jets tried to rewrite history with what the 5T does in a 3-4 defense in bringing in all of these 300 pounders to play it like disrupting pass rushers.

    It really felt like they were trying to 1) make up for the Warren Sapp mishap and 2) find their own Richard Seymour.

    In all 3-4 defenses, the 5T is strictly a blocker eater and a two gap run defender. Some are better than others but it can be supplemented and replaced a lot easier than we've made it seem. Anything more you get out of that player other than grabbing the tackle and the guard and making sure they don't push you back, is a bonus.

    It's not a bonus to seek out though. There's a reason Belichick dealt Seymour for the draft picks he received for him. Also ignored, was that Seymour was routinely flanked by good outside linebackers, who are the real stars of any 3-4 defense and specifically Belichick's.

    Sheldon Richardson was a 4-3 3technique through and through. Outside shade of the guard on either side and try to blowup the play as quickly as possible. Don't worry about grabbing guards or tackles or occupying space. GET. IN. THE. BACKFIELD. Wilkerson was a prototypical 5T and he was really good at it, except he became the laziest player I've ever seen once he got paid.

    Leonard Williams was a shitty version of Wilkerson, but his draft profile and scouting reports were billed as having enough speed/power to kick out to the outside and pass rush on third downs. He is pretty fast. He is very strong. He's also one of the slowest players out of his stance, off the snap, in the league. It's not something that can easily be corrected.

    And for some reason Rex thought Quinton Coples was Julius Peppers. He had all the size and speed to be that player, but he wasn't entirely motivated and he was stood up immediately because there was no spot on the field for him. Peppers did it late in his career for Green Bay but only because he was a savvy veteran. There's such a huge leverage difference between standing up and being put in a stance and since Coples had no place on the field in a 3 point stance, Rex just threw him out there standing up and he was lost.

    Quinnen Williams is in that Sheldon Richardson mold. Except we play this weird hybrid and waste his penetrating ability by playing more of like a 3-4 nose although he shades wider than a traditional 3-4 nose would. It's like he's playing him in a 3T with 3-4 principals. I think it's partly because we really have no edge rusher to speak of so he's trying to have Q occupy blockers and loop the shitty pass rushers all over the place to generate pressure.

    Hopefully this ideology of what the 3-4 defense and 5T does died with Maccagnan and Bowles leaving. The Steelers have run a 3-4 defense for 40 years. They always have good five techniques. They've drafted one (Hayward) high in 40 years. While taking an OLB every other year. Because again; the stars of the defense.
     
  3. thedonger

    thedonger Active Member

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    Was Casey Hampton not considered a 5T or was he more a 3T?
     
  4. Mogriffjr

    Mogriffjr Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant post.
     
  5. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Casey Hampton was a nose tackle. In terms of technique it would be the zero technique (0T) but they usually don't refer to them as that. They're space eaters as well.

    In most traditional running alignments the center is responsible for blocking the MIKE (middle) linebacker. That's usually the play side linebacker in a 3-4 but it depends on scheme. The nose tackles job in a 3-4 is to not let the center or play side guard get to that linebacker. These are not players that are trying to penetrate. They move up and down the LOS which is why they're usually not paid very well and they're bigger guys.

    Hampton was so damn good at that. Similar to how good Sione Pouha and Kris Jenkins were for us.
     
  6. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the really informative posts. They shed light on some things I didn't know before. But what they also do is to highlight the apparent systemic disconnect within the Jets organization on player acquisition and use. Unless we assume that Rex and Bowles knew nothing about what you posted (unfathomable), and then it was the GMs that didn't understand what types of players they needed. Of course, some blame would still fall to the HCs for not altering their preferred schemes to utilize the talent they DID have (something the current HC has trouble doing as well).

    This should make it abundantly clear, even to the Johnsons, that they need to get a Pres. of Football Ops here to design a blueprint for this team, and to ensure that all personnel follow it, from GM on down to the practice squad players. This is why teams like the Steelers, Patriots, Cowboys, Packers, Ravens, have consistent success - everyone is singing from the same hymnal. Until the Jets follow this method they're just hurting everyone's ears.
     
  7. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I don't inherently have a huge problem with drafting position groups year frequently. The Vikings do it with corners. The Steelers do it with outside linebackers. The Ravens used to do it with all sorts of linebackers and the Patriots do it with offensive lineman.

    But you're right. It needs to fit what you're doing. And it needs to be impact positions. You don't continue to spend first round picks on run stoppers. In the 80s, where Rex pulled his philosophy from his dad, it made a lot of sense.

    The other issue is that blitz schemes have gotten tougher to survive in the long term in a league where a sneeze on a receiver is a penalty.

    Rex's philosophy was as long as I can stop the run, I'll figure out third down all season long and into the playoffs with scheme. So I'm just going to continue to draft big defensive ends to stop the run and I'm such a great defensive coach that we'll just blitz the hell out of everyone on third down.

    It wore thin and the league figured it out. I don't know what the hell Bowles' philosophy was.

    "Bowles needs great man to man corners to run his scheme." Yeah us and 31 other teams in the league.

    We need to build an identity. And cycle that identity through the years of/when it starts to work. Bowles and Maccagnan were all over the place. 3-4 defense but draft a 220 pound inside linebacker? Two safeties in one draft while the offense is starving?
     
  8. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. Why did they never once try to draft a corner for his man to man scheme in the first couple rounds either. I'm pretty sure everyone saw the T. Johnson wasn't the answer. I know they over paid but It just felt like none of their drafts made sense even for the defensive side. Ignoring the offense was bad enough but at least try to make sense with your "scheme". I mean Adams is good but you can tell me there wasn't a chance to trade back or even draft a corner in the second round. And the d line and linebacker picks had just killed the team. Lee was probably the worse one.
     
  9. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Well-Known Member

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    Great post. Well said! Thanks!
     
  10. dmarz45

    dmarz45 Well-Known Member

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    im still fucking pissed as hell we took him over Melvin Ingram man. I knew Ingram was gonna be good that was such a stupid waste of a pick. Boy the jets really know how to fuck up every single draft
     
  11. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    One of many. Hopefully that changes this year. Count how many first and second rounders we used on defense since Rex got here. How many really worked out? It's all in the front office and Head Coaching. We have to believe the coaches had some say in the players as well as GMs and Scouts.

    If Douglas is what they say he is I expect it to change this year. We should see an offensive draft with a lot of focus on the trenches.
     
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  12. dmarz45

    dmarz45 Well-Known Member

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    I wanna see 4 brand new starting o lineman and at least a legit WR1 and a legit edge rusher
     
  13. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    Thats going to take time. Douglas has limited cap space. Even after cutting the crap pieces (Winters) and the ones we don't need anymore (Williamson) we are limited. You can't just go in and expect and 100% turn around. I think realistically we will get 2-3 new oline and hopefully a WR1. Thats trading back from a top 10 pick and signing free agents. We could also pick up edge and corner in free agency depending on what teams do... Shaq Barrett, Marcus Peters, and Clowney all have expiring contracts.
     
  14. HerndonFan

    HerndonFan 2018 ROTY Poster Award Winner

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    Alton Robinson could be available for us in round 3.
     
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  15. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't had the chance to watch much of Syracuse. I will check him out. Thanks for the post. If he can even be our Calvin Pace he's worth a 3rd.
     
  16. Pepsiguy5

    Pepsiguy5 Well-Known Member

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    That was the (good I thought) point Francesa was making the other day. The Jets problem is that all their holes are in the tough positions that are almost impossible to really fix in any way but through the draft. Offensive line help, Edge rush, and cornerback. Nobody lets good players go that play any of those positions as a general rule. And its just going to take time to heal everything up.

    It also brings the spotlight uncomfortably back to this last draft where we could have gotten some help at Edge or OL but instead...…. yeah.
     
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  17. Harpua

    Harpua Well-Known Member

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    That had rex’s fingerprints all over it. Rex loved lineman on both sides of the ball to have longer arms, something that He fit the mold of and Ingram did not. Also, when it came time for him to run linebacker drills rex ran them for him. It was obvious he loved the kids talent, but overlooked his complete lack of passion for the game.
     
  18. DefenseWinsChampionships

    DefenseWinsChampionships Well-Known Member

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    Heading into the draft I wanted Josh Allen out of Kentucky; kid broke the single season sack record within the SEC All-Time. That says something to me. It screams. Was a can't miss pass rusher hello.

    Nothing against Q I absolutely loved him coming out and still do but we haven't had an outside pass rusher since Abe who struck fear into olines and QBs. Adams and Allen chasing QBs would be awesome. Once we land a true outside pass rusher if ever happens then we'll truly see Q's true impact.
     
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  19. GQMartin

    GQMartin Go 'Cuse

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    Once I saw Q in camp, I figured he’d be a few years away from production.

    He looked small and doughy and I thought he definitely needed to grow into his frame.
     
  20. footballfundamentals

    footballfundamentals Active Member

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    Let's bring in an edge rusher before we decide who he really is? Didn't JJ Watt's production decline after Clowney was hurt/traded? Just a recent example which comes to mind.
     

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