This is getting just a bit ridiculous, no? Noone has said that he is all this team needs just that if he is the BPA it is a no brainer of a pick.
Shhh No! We need to use another Top 5 pick on an OL or DL :breakdance: Anyway, you hit the nail on the head. What everyone is forgetting is that if you still want to draft OL and DL it's not like we only have 1 draft pick. Gems like Larry Allen, Jhari Evans, Kevin Mawae, Tom Nalen, Jeff Saturday have all been drafted in the later rounds. Often the difference between a Guard or Tackle (btw you should never draft a RT in the 1st round unless your QB is LH) drafted in the 1st round isn't very much between one drafted in the 3rd round or 4th round.
sorry to be a nag (i have to leave for class soon), but can someone reply to my post about three or four back and let me know why that scenario is so implausible?
yes, and we basically need about two starters on the OL; because the starters now can be upgraded, they would become immediate depth: Clement, Clarke, Montgomery, Bender. it's not like we have to acquire both starters and depth. the OL is very bad, but it's not far from being good, meaning overall with depth. we just need a couple of bigger, stronger, starting caliber players.
We no doubt need to pick up a veteran at LG. Put Bender in at RT and you can draft a Guard in the 2nd or 3rd round and still use Brandon Moore who is servicable until the rookie is ready to go. Here are some Gs and Ts that have been drafted early in the 2nd and 3rd rounds the last couple of years 2005 Starting LT Michael Roos Tennessee Titans 2nd Round 2006 Backup LT Winston Justice Philadelphia Eagles 2nd Round (had a horrible game vs. NYG but has a ton of potential. We'll see how that goes) Starting LG Darren Colledge Green Bay Packers 2nd Round Starting LT Marcus McNeill San Diego Chargers 2nd Round Starting RT Eric Winston Houston Texans 3rd Round 2007 Starting LG Aaron Sears Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2nd Round Starting LG Justin Blalock Atlanta Falcons 2nd Round (someone I think the world of) Starting LT Tony Ugoh Indianapolis Colts 2nd Round So as you can see there are still a lot of very qualitiy OL in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
No, to my knowledge no one has said that, so there you go again with a dishonest representation of what most of the opposing posts have consisted of. My above sarcastic post was meant to mirror your fever-pitch pounding of the table for McFadden and Mcfaden at all cost. Quite frankly, (and I enjoy and respect all of Vision's posts), his last statementm, "if he is the BPA it is a no brainer of a pick," astonishes me. AT #5, THIS RB IS NOT A "NO BRAINER!" Trade down. We can't afford the luxury of BPA. Still want to use the pick? Fine. Get me a speed-burning, physical WR in the mold of Jerry Rice. Our lines are screaming for huge, athletic, game-breaking talent, so while I'm not interested in thowing away 1st Round picks on linemen, I want better than 4th Round-ranked people. You won't spend your #5 on McFadden and stil have enough capital to get what I want. I want nothing short of COMPLETE, awe-inspiring monsters on BOTH lines for the start of '08. Nothing but the best. If you're going to acquire that kind of talent you're going to spend an awful lot of capital (both draft picks and signings) to get it done.
I always respect your opinions and consider you a friend w/ our days at TC... But I have to disagree w/ you... IMO we are so bad..we dont have the luxery of NOT going BPA at # 5 and grabbing an elite talent REGARDLESS of position. I'm not saying it's Mcfadden or bust..and if we got a good enough trade offer, by all means, trade down..but at the same time..McFadden IS an elite talent who would most certainly help this team along many fronts. As for the "best of the best" linemen...we'll be able to build some good depth and get acouple solid starters from FA/the draft..but arent gonna get a pro bowl front overnight..that takes at least 3 years to develop and is alot more than just stockpiling quality young linemen. We need to draft and pay for value...while prioritizing both lines.. that does not require us to use a first rounder on one.
No, but obviously you and Alio are against using a top 5 pick on McFadden. So what is it? Trade? If no trade I haven't seen any post from either of you that says to draft McFadden. And I have not said McFadden at all costs. I have said McFadden is the right pick if he is there at our spot. Wait...now you say not to draft McFadden but to draft a WR at #5. Wow. What WR? What is Larry Allen? Jhari Evans? They're not awe inspiring monsters? You can get studs on the OL in the mid rounds. The Dallas Cowboys draft strategy still works. We have already spent 2 first round picks on the OL. It's time to get the playmakers and still get the OL in the mid rounds. I don't disagree that the OL/DL is important. But I disagree that we need to CONTINUE to spend 1st round picks on the O-Line or to pass up talent like McFadden.
Okay, here we go again. First of all, if we have somehow managed to fill the holes on at least both lines before the draft, I'd be happy to pick McFadden. Quite simply, it ain't gonna happen. 1) We don't have unlimited resources to make signings, and 2) we wouldn't spend it all, even if we did. Now then, as far as the scenario laid out by eddawg, the reason he said we cannot address all needs in this coming draft is the exact reason why we don't pick McFadden. Now here's the part where I keep losing people, so try to follow along. I don't recall saying we should use the 5th pick in the draft to draft an OT. I'm pretty confident I don't recall saying it because I never actually did. In fact, all along, I've been strictly advocating trading the number 5 pick. Was that clear enough? So what does that do for us? Well, it pushes us down further in the first round, where we can grab a more affordable BPA at that point, that actually fills a need we have. We also walk away with an extra couple picks over the course of the two days. So why does this help improve the team? Well, as ed pointed out, if you use each of your original picks, with no additional picks, some will not pan out. That's the way it goes. The draft is not a science, it's a gamble. When you add addtional picks to the mix though, suddenly you begin to shift the odds in your own favor. Are we starting to understand the point now? McFadden fills a position we have no clear need to fill. Without a quality offensive line, he won't have the holes to create the space he needs to be successful. In addition, Clemens will not have the time to throw. Same old Jets. Screw this "I'm tired of not having a player to cheer for" BS. I'm tired of not having a title to cheer for.
We could argue this forever...........my point is BUILD THE LINES ...Build the lines folks.....the rest will follow!
I think both sides of the fence on this issue(the reasonable folk that is) agree that trading down is the way to go. What we don't seem to agree on is that trading down is not always a given. Teams have to want to move up. Then those teams have to be willing to part with the value it takes to move up. If I remember correctly the Saints weren't bent on taking Reggie Bush. They were actively shopping the pick but there weren't any takers. We have to be willing to face the possibility that it might not be possible to move down - in that case then what do we do? That is really the vibe I am getting from most here that are saying draft McFadden. If time is running out on our 10 minutes to pick and there isn't a feasible trade available - who do you pick if not Reggie McFadden?
this was going to be my next post. i'm all for trading down. but what if we can't or don't get the value (if that was the case with the Saints)? do you simply pass up on McFadden for someone like Chris Long because you want to improve the 3-4? and who said something about not taking McFadden in the Top 5, but rather a WR instead?? not only is that kind of hypocritical, but what WR warrants that?
I agree with this view. In fact, due to the dollars involved within the Top 5 (maybe 10) I feel you should take BPA Regardless of need. You are going to be tying up a lot of Cap space. That kind of investment should be as high ranked/talented of a player you can find. If McFadden is there, I would have a hard time passing on him myself. he is a dynamic playmaker in the position that most easily translates to the NFL. A very big up grade for a very weak offense. Let him split time and carries with TJ. Get his feet under him while not having to shoulder the load. Leon becomes a true third down type, and eventually a great back up to McFadden. The Lines can be addressed in rounds 2-4 and FA.
We have an inexpensive explosive player at running back. He is probably the most explosive offensive player on the team. The NFL has changed the rules to favor the passing game. We lack explossion at WR and TE, we pretty much stink at WR and TE. Tieing up big money at running back where we allready have competence and game breaking potential seems insane to me. How deep is this draft in top tradeable talent? Where are we picking? My guess is there will be 3 or 4 coveted players in this draft by the time the combines are over. If we are in that mix and one of those explossive top talents is either a LB, DL, OL or WR that is the direction we should go. If McFadden falls to us and he is coveted by another team we should package him. A lot depends on how much money is really tied up in Thomas Jones if we cut or trade him?
I love Thomas Jones and don't think he should be cut or traded. But dare I say it (as we are the same age hmy but he's going to be 30 next year. He will still be a viable piece of the offense, but looking forward RB will be a "need" position in the next year or 2. Why not get one of the best to come out in a long time if he's there. I'm not closed to the idea of trading the pick, but I do feel it would be a mistake. And this whole convo could be a moot point anyway, if we win another game.
