What the fuck? Since when is knowing geography a measure of intelligence? Why is it that you've somehow been appointed the keeper of the methods to measure intelligence? Is there a list of things I'm supposed to know in order for you to consider me intelligent? I'll tell you what, I don't know the capital of New Jersey, and frankly I don't care. Memorizing inane useless facts is not the measure of intelligence. Intelligence is adaptability. The quicker you can integrate and adjust to new situations, the more intelligent you are. Memorizing a fact has nothing to do with this. Why do I need to memorize a fact when I can look it up somewhere if I needed to? On the football field, Vince Young so far appears to be an absolute genius. And that's all that matters for a team that drafts him. I have the absolute confidence that Vince will succeed for whatever team he is on. I'm personally going to root for him, no matter what team he ends up on. We're probably better off with Cutler, so I'll just follow his career on another team. You are a pathetic elitist. This argument has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or a failure of the school system. You're only concerned with making yourself feel superior to others. Why don't you definitely state what you think intelligence is? Don't tell me this geography nonsense is your final argument.
I guess I just love this story to an unnatural degree. More importantly we ought to get our Vince Young story straight, because it's looking more and more like he's the fat chick with braces sitting there waiting for us to ask her to dance when the fourth song starts playing. Incidentally, for those that care about such things, I think he did get a 6, but I also think that he probably went into the test and filled in the little circles like it was all a big joke. A guy like Vince, why should he care? Until, of course, his test score hit newsprint, and his top-three draft status seemed to be slipping.
If the conspiracy theory is true, why didn't they simply give him a mid 20 score in the first place? Notice it's PFT again, the same site that reported this in the first place, and would have an incentive in the conspiracy theory being right.
Well, yes, it's a rumor site. It's also a rumor site that gets quite a bit correctl and therein lies my only problem with PFT - they're not shy about telling everyone when they do. Once you weed through the chest thumping, PFT is right more than it's wrong. After four years in business, it kind of has to be. Too many mainstream people read it daily.
Cursing is a great way to make a point. Great work! That's funny, when I was in grammar school, I had to be able to recite the names of all 50 states, as well as each of their capitols. There is the point about knowledge. It isn't useless. It's 5th grade education. But fine, you would rather not know the capitols. Yes, look up your facts. The internet has done wonders for people looking up facts. Funny that 90% of the information on the internet is wrong. But we can ignore that too, since you probably don't like hearing that either. I'm a pathetic elitist? No, I am an American whose grandparents came over on the boat. I look with pride at the life I have made for my wife and children. Sorry if it sickens me that people in this country are so willing to throw away everything our ancestors busted their asses for to build for us. No one wants to be anything but a materilistic, fat, lazy couch potato. So I should just go crawl in a hole and deal with it? Yeah, sounds great, until it all comes tumbling down. But fine, I guess I should just join the rest of the disenfranchised and sulk at the miserable state our country is in. I don't feel superior to others. Why would I? I am a human being, just like anyone else. In fact, if I had my way, I would be the most uninformed person in the world. I would rather see the large majority of the country hold onto simple math skills. Just the other day, I was in Nathan's buying hot dogs for my kids. The total came out to $9.25. I handed the kid behind the counter $10.25. My wife and I actually laughed in his face when he stood there staring at the quarter, trying to figure out how to make the change. That is friggin sad. If you don't think so, then you have your own problems to deal with. I defined intelligence. I also stated that I misspoke earlier when I used that word interchangably with knowledge. I have no problem admitting I was wrong. My point with the geography was that we rank behind some so-called Third World countries in our knowledge of the landscape of the planet. That doesn't disturb you? If it doesn't, then that just justifies what I have been saying all along. We have grown content living with mediocrity. The world hasn't though. American currency now ranks behind the Euro and the Pound. I'm not sure if the Yen is stronger yet, but if it isn't it will be. China currently holds enough of our currency in storage that at any time, they can release it to the world market, and our dollar would become worthless. Does any of this make sense? I don't have anything against you, any of the posters on this board, or even Vince Young as people. What I have a problem with is that we as a people are willing to accept being second-fiddle to everyone else looking to stomp us right out of existence. I knew this would become a flame war. I stated that in the first post I made in this thread. Maybe it will get some people to think. Maybe it won't. I apologize to the board at large, and the mods, and anyone else who is disgusted that I turned this into a soapbox. I bleed green, just like everyone else here. More importantly, I bleed red, white and blue. If you do too, then I hope you really read what I wrote and think about it for a minute. You may not think it's important, that somehow this is insignificant, but that is a problem. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Later all.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that there is some debate concerning what the IQ test actually measures, but that's just semantics anyway. In today's day and age, I think that a lot of people see your comments as "un-PC" because the standard policy for most people is live and let live. We live in a world of cultural relativism, in which people feel like you cannot say one person's way of life is quantitatively, or qualitatively for that matter, better than someone else's. That's why a lot of people are inflamed by your postion. I ascribe to this theory of cultural relativism myself to a degree. Who's to say that your way is better than someone else's? While I agree that the nation's shocking decline in education is alarming, I'm not sure there is any quick fix. How are you supposed to motivate someone who never felt the pressure to succeed or starve? This nation has always leaned on the backs of its immigrants for hard work and intelligence. Once we cannot, I think that we may be in trouble. However, this will probably not happen over the next twenty years. History progresses a little slower than that, barring some calamitous unforeseen event. Granted, technological "progress" has accelerated exponentially over the past two centuries, and even decades, but I simply don't see America bowing out of the world scene in twenty years. While this is interesting, why are we talking about this on a Jets Football forum? If you want cultural debate, I think that you would be better served going to a more academic chatroom. Any conversation here is either not well-received or over the head.
I can tell you what the IQ test measures. It's mostly pattern recognition. So it measures spatial reasoning. It's maybe one facet of intelligence, but I don't think it's a very accurate measure of true intelligence. I don't think there really is a way to definitively measure just how intelligent someone is. I guess you can just look at success and try to measure it that way. We don't argue with Alio because he's un-PC. We argue with his position because it's full of holes and he doesn't even realize why we say so. I don't think he even knows what elitism means. Well, he says he's done here though, so no point in mentioning it anymore.
I think that what I meant is that is why people naturally react angrily to his comments. And honestly, I can see where he is coming from. He thinks that everyone should strive to achieve the most that they can in scholarly pursuits. It's not that malicious of a theory. I just disagree that it is true. To each his own.
IQ is largely about the ability to reason which is why it's so important to a quarterback. I personally think that playing quarterback in the NFL is the most difficult position to master in all of sports. You must be able to keep the offense organized and see that everyone's in the correct formation. You must analyze the defense and see if you need to audible. On a pass play you need to look at up to 5 receivers and decide which one is your best bet--in less than 3 seconds--with a pass rush in your face and the crowd screaming at you. It's not a job for the slow witted. You can be a moron and be a good defensive tackle but there have been very few who have been successful as quarterbacks with poor Wonderlic scores. The only qb's of note that I saw from recent years are McNabb, who tested out at 12 and 16, Culpepper, who tested three times for scores of 15, 18 and 21, and Marino who tested out at 14 (seems like a fluke--he doesn't come across as that stupid). Other qb's are almost always well over 20 with only Michael Vick at 20. Some current qb's: Pennington 25, P Manning 28, Brady 33, Palmer 26, Brees 28, Roethlisberger 25 and E Manning 39. One site has possible leaked scores from the combine of 16 for Young, 29 for Cutler and 35 for Leinhart.
Of course it takes intelligence to be a pro QB. I just don't buy into the fact that the Wonderlick or any IQ test can measure the intelligence needed. I know plenty of really bright guys who on an athletic field can't see a logical progression of events unfolding in front him. Really great athletes are separated in talent by almost nothing. My observation is that the really special athletes actual see more of what is happening a split second faster than every one else and have what I call an athletic IQ that really isn't measurable by a test you would give to an employee to see if they are smart, knowledgeable, hard workers or honest. Very often guys who aren't very book smart are really good athletes. Maybe they learned through playing, maybe it's a mental quirk, who knows. You want to get into a political argument that our society doesn't value a solid education, I agree. You want to put down a person who work hard at menial jobs, I think that is an elitist position. If the trash doesn't get picked up and the oil isn't pumped into the tank your going to have less time to pursue whatever it is you want to pursue. While it may be sad that Woods is selling meat door to door, there isn't anything wrong with it. There are people in this world who would love that opportunity. My problem with this argument is your making an assumption that Young could have done better on the Wonderlick and somehow that's either his fault or societies fault? My point is the guy has a trade, he isn't going to be a burden on society. Not knowing where North Dakota is his lose not mine. While a solid education should be valued, looking down your nose at people who have a trade is not just elitist it ignores a basic tenet that hard menial work does have real value and so does Art, Music and entertainment.
Okay, now I am starting to see the argument against me. It is based on misunderstanding. I never said I looked down on people who do menial jobs. Hell, my father drove a truck for a construction company from the time he could drive until he died a few years back. He paid the bills, kept me fed, and made sure I got the education I did. Why would I look down on my own personal hero? That's not idle chatter either, I once wrote an award winning essay on him as my hero. What makes a good or great athlete is subject to unending debate. I have seen situations where people who probably shouldn't have had a hand on a ball at were somehow "talented." IMO, it has a lot to do with hard work and dedication. Sure, physical traits give you an advantage, but steriods can, and do, solve that problem easily enough. (This isn't a comment meant to spark an argument. I am not trying to imply that anyone does, or even should use steriods.) Based on what I just said, my opinion is that there is no reason a person cannot be knowledgable, and athletically talented. Look at Vilma, he is a perfect example. Doesn't he know something in the neighborhood of 4 languages? Does that mean Vilma was somehow blessed with a genius brain, and physical traits to allow him to excel at a sport? Or did he just decide to attend classes, work hard in the gym, and become the most complete Johnathan Vilma he could be? Obviously we can argue our opinions on the topic all day, and neither of us will change our stance, so why argue about it? We do agree that society does not value a solid education. And that was really the point in the first place. I wound up losing my cool when people started making this about me. My fault, I should have tempered my words, but stuff happens. I truly have nothing against anyone who does a menial job. Hell, my own brother graduated with honors from NYIT, then turned around and went into construction. I still have the utmost respect for him. Why would I not? Why would I look down my nose at someone who works with their hands? They are the foundation of the society we live in. I'm no idiot, I realize the importance of every individual. The issue of Woods is a problem. By his own admission. They aren't my words, they are his own. He was embarassed, and he regretted not having done more to protect himself before winding up in his situation. He now works for the NFL to help young players coming in avoid the problems he went through with smarter money management. That's admirable. I just wish the NFL would do more to promote these kids getting the education in the first place, rather than teach them how not to spend $10M in twenty minutes. Could Young have done better on the Wonderlick? I don't know. I don't know the guy. By some accounts, the guy is really smart, and he very well may be. If so, great. If he is missing questions such as what is the ninth month of the year, then that isn't very knowledgable is it? I can't speak for the guy. I have no idea what the conditions of the test were, so there could be other reasons for the poor score. It's his business, and his issue to deal with. This argument spiraled out of control yesterday. I never meant it as a personal attack on Young. Like I stated in my last post, I apologized for making this thread my soapbox. It was inappropriate, and I regret it. My whole point was not to bash Young, or board members, or laborers. My issue was that society has a problem where education is devalued. The point began with the subject of allowing "students" to skate through school simply because of some talent in a sport. It warped into an insane argument when both myself and those I was addressing felt offended by comments made by both parties. Like I already said, I apologize for jumping on my soapbox. It was inappropriate, and obviously unwelcome. My fault, my foul. I only posted again because I want people to understand I never meant to downplay the true importance of people who work in any way, shape or form. Every man/woman/child has their own place in society.
Why don't we try to get back to the original subject at hand instead of trying to solve the nation's educational problems? Many on the board think Vince Young's low score is unimportant. How many here think this is so? More important, how many GM's will think it's unimportant and what will this do to us in terms of who's available at #4? If Young truly only scored 6, I think it's a problem. If it was 16, I think it'll probably be overlooked. Look, if you're not a fan of drafting a QB, then all this means nothing to you. But if you're a proponent of taking Cutler you've got to be concerned that he gets taken within the first three picks now. How much of a possibility do you guys see of this happening? I suppose I shouldn't get myself in a dither either way. Vince Young is a terrific QB too. I just wanted more of a pure QB, not so much of a scrambler.
I am actually working in Texas this week and this is the big story on the radio down here. Vince Young is their Golden boy and the callers are all calling in to defend him.
I totally agree with you. I was never sold on Young, regardless of test scores. I think he will be a capable NFL QB, but then again, so is Vick. So is Culpepper. I want a guy who is going to stay back in the pocket and look off all of his options before he takes off downfield. Hell, I would rather our QB never went downfield. McNabb got smart about laying back, and I think he is a better QB for it. If there weren't so many issues in the locker room, and had he not been so badly injured, I think Philly would have been the ones to lose against Pittsburgh. I think Culpepper could learn from McNabb. My opinion is that Vick is a lost cause. As far as Young, I don't know. Could he learn to be a pocket passer? Would he be successful? I was posting a little over a week ago while watching the draft boys compete on ESPN. Young had some pretty bad aim on his long balls. He has a cannon, but it is a loose one. Brodie Croyle was throwing rockets, and keeping them inline. My draft list, if we are only looking at QBs is as follows: Croyle Cutler Young Leinhart I think Leinhart is probably the most overrated QB in the draft. Young has a lot of talent. The question is can it be honed? Leinhart had a good team, but does he have the skills to hit the big time? I'm not so sure. I know Croyle is not even on a lot of people's lists, but I like what I have seen of him. I wouldn't be the least bit upset if we managed to grab Cutler though.
