Question for Anybody and Everybody: Which is more important for a Cold Off The Bench Raw Rookie NFL QB,,, Pass Completion %. (Elway 47.5 -- Tebow 47.3) OR ~ Passer 'Efficiency' Rating. (Elway 54 -- Tebow 75) ~ TD's to Int's Ratio and/or TD's to Turnovers Ratio. (Peyton 26 to 28 (.93 to 1) - Elway 4 to 14 (.29 to 1) - Tebow 17 to 9 (1.9 to 1) ~ Team Leadership as exibited by the W/L record. (P.Manning 3-13 --- Tebow 9-7) Please explain your answer in detail if you believe that it's the Completion %. PS And NO, I'm not saying that Tim is ALREADY a better QB than Elway or Peyton were after 10+ years in the NFL. Just that he is WAY BETTER in his first 16 (2 seasons) starts. >>> And Tim 'works harder' than anyone to continue getting better. And IF Tim's donkey receivers had caught just 1 more out of 10 passes, his Comp % would have been 57.3%. His young (Lloyd/Gaffney-less) receivers had multiple drops in the same game.
Unfortunately slap is the one that is generally and usually wrong but lets not let the actual facts get in the way of the anti tebow narrative.
Once again you reveal that you are an idiot. John Elway's rookie season was 1983. Tim Tebow's was 2010. That's a 27 year difference there, skippy, and the style of football played was very different than what's played today. DOH. If you want to compare rookie QB stats then compare rookie QB stats to rookies today, 2009-2011. In fact, I think you should take the 2011 crop because they didn't even have OTAs or rookie camps. Heck, the 2011 crop didn't even get their playbooks until a training camps opened or a few days before. I'd call that just about as "raw" as rookies are gonna get. Compare your boy Timmie to Andy Dalton who took his Bengals to the playoffs as a rookie, and the Bengals actually won more games than they lost. You want another super rookie QB performance? How about Ben Roethlisberger in 2004 who came in off the bench in Pitt's 2004 season opener because of Maddox's injury and took the Steelers to 15 straight wins. The next year, 2005, Kyle Orton came off the bench and led the Bears to an 11-5 record after starter Rex Grossman was injured. Oh, yeah, I forgot, Orton was sooooo awful even if he led his team to more victories in 1 season than Tebow did in 2 years. Reality is that as a "raw rookie", Orton was pretty good. Take your contrived statistical bull shit and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Yeah, as a "raw rookie" Orton was very good, then he apparently hit his ceiling, explaining why he is now a backup QB. As for Elway and the 20 something year old stats, go ahead and compare his stats that year with his contemporaries. You'll find that he was one of the worst QBs in the league his first year as a starter. Sound familiar ?
Who the hell cares about Elway's first season except you because you can use it to attempt to make some statistical case that says Tim Tebow is NOT a crappy QB. Well, Skippy, you go right ahead. It's rather obvious that you're a few cans short of a six pack.
First off, I got your 'skippy' swinging bubba. So, 1983 was the reason that Elway initially sucked you claim? It was the year and the MAJOR DIFFERENCE in how the game was played way back then huh? You're stupid is showing,,, and it smells like LOSER... Here's another 1983 Rookie QB that was 22 years old then: (you figure it out) Passing - 173 of 296, 58.4% for 2,210 yds, 7.5 ypa, 20 TD's to 6 Ints PER 96.0 So apparently it was not the year 1983 that was the problem for Saint John El' Dim-way's 54 PER,,,, DOH! And were Peyton's first 16 (W/L 3-13) Rookie Int Record (26/28) starts also way back in 1983? >idiot< (Where was Peyton's 'taking care of the ball, reading defenses, passing accuracy,' etc) While Completion % is dependent DIRECTLY ON THE QUALITY/ABILITY OF THE RECEIVERS! ============== If you want to compare current rookie QB's then why didn't you compare the Top 4 QB's that were taken in Tebow's draft? Contrived response you say? :breakdance: Keeping in mind that the dink & dunk junk passes result in a higher completion percentage. 1/1 Pick Sam Bradford Passing - 354 of 562 for 3,512 yds, 6.0 ypa, 9.9 ypc, PER 76.5 >>> TD/Int Ratio 1.2 to 1 (18/15) 1/25 Pick Tim Tebow Passing - 167 of 353 for 2,283 yds, 6.8 ypa, 13.7 ypc, PER 75.1 >>> TD/Int Ratio 1.9 to 1 (17/9) >>> Tim had 1 less TD pass than Sam on 209 less attempts. >>> Sam accounted for 19 Total TD's,,, Tim for 29 Total TD's. And Sam was the anointed starter and given every advantage, not coming in cold off the bench. Feel free to throw in Colt >I'm Batman< McCoy or Jimmy 'da pickle' Clausen into the comparison if you'd like. (highly contrived & un-freakin' likely) Tim also got his passing stats while taking an NFL beating running the ball, not standing around as just another pocket p--sy QB. I wonder (not really) why you 'contrived' to not include either Big Ben's or Dandy Andy's rushing stats... Bradford Rushing - 27 for 63 yds, 2.3 ypa, 1 TD Tebow Rushing --- 165 for 887 yds, 5.4 ypc, 12 TD's to 6 LPF's. You really are this biased/hateful/ignorant/stupid aren't you? (rhetorical) PS Are you sure that my 'contrived statistical bull-chit' will fit in there, with your big head already taking up so much space? :rofl2:
I can now see where you got the name slap from. (the usual results of your more than stupid mouth-running) fftopic: But my own non-violent response to your idiocy is.... :lol:
Didn't really think I needed to spell out something that a 10 year old could easily understand, BUT, I guess, in your case, I was mistaken. Simple point. Elway, in his first season as a starter, was one of the WORST QBs in the league. Last I checked, I believe he ended up going to the SB 5 times, won 2 of them, and ended up in the HoF. Now again, a 10 year old would understand that this isn't implying that Tebow will do the same, but I'm dealing with you, so I'll state it categorically. That Elway became a great QB doesn't mean that Tebow will. BUT, it does mean that based on precedents, one would be kind of ignorant to conclude that someone will never be a good NFL QB based on their first 16 starts in the NFL. Do you have a problem understanding that concept ? If so, I'll break out the finger paint next time and maybe, just maybe, the point might get across to you.
:lol: Why don't you list all the QBs over the last 30 years who were "one of the WORST QBs in the league" in their first year as starters. Then you can put a star or something next to the name of each one who went on to be great. Except for Elway and maybe Peyton, I bet you won't find too many. Of course, it'll be hard to find all those QBs since most of them were utterly forgettable ...
Comparisons that I've made in the past have legitimate reasons, even if the hateful/ignorant would like to claim otherwise. El' Dim-way - He's the current E-VP of the Broncos that 'publicly' dissed on Tim's 47.3% pass completion percentage. He did so while his dim-witted selective memory forgot all about his own 47.5% pass completion percentage. Peyton Manning - Because he's the 14 Year Vet and probable future HoF QB that it took to get Tim out of Denver without THEIR LOCAL LONG TIME BRONCO FANS burning down the stadium for trading away Tebow. Heisman and 1/1 draft pick Sam Bradford, the Okla QB that LOST by double digits in the BCS-NC game to crappy Tim Tebow and the Gators. Bradford, Heisman Finalist Colt McCoy, and ND's Jimmy 'da pickle' Clausen were the other Top 4 QB's from the 2010 draft. Matt Stafford, the SEC/Ga QB from the same overlapping years era as Tebow. Mark the San-man, cause he's the current Jets QB. (I only compared their first 16 NFL game stats because of the erronous claims that they are both way better than Tim and/or sure things as NFL QB's) Rookie NFL Rushing Comparisons: Mike 'A-Train' Alstott Former Gator RB and NFL HoF'er Emmitt Smith. And any QB that can run the ball, Vince Young for example. Where any of those younger guys end up in their NFL careers is yet to be seen and I make no 'crystal ball' claims for any of them that I've mentioned, including Tim. However, anyone can review the Pass and/or Run stats of any of them in their first 16 NFL starts and what you get are 'factual comparisons' of their initial abilities. The indisputable FACT that Tim's PLAYER EFFICIENCY is better than a combination of either: Elway + Alstott OR hmy: P.Manning + E.Smith It's just the FACTUAL REALITY of the situation. Live with it! :beer:
Catt, not exactly what you asked for, but I think it's relatively similar/ According to Pro Football Report: (Search Parameters: Rookie seasons, <= 50% comp %, minimum 100 attempts.) Two things to note. First, the presumption that 50% or less comp % would put person near the "worst in the league". Second, am trying to figure out how to differentiate between "rookie" and "first year as a starter". Maybe broaden search to include years 1 & 2 ? Code: Rk Player Year Age Draft Tm Lg G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Sk Y/A SkYds AY/A ANY/A Y/G 1 Drew Bledsoe 1993 21 1-Jan NWE NFL 13 12 214 429 49.90% 2494 15 15 65 16 5.81 99 4.94 4.54 191.8 2 Kerry Collins 1995 23 5-Jan CAR NFL 15 13 214 433 49.40% 2717 14 19 61.9 24 6.27 150 4.95 4.36 181.1 3 Heath Shuler 1994 23 3-Jan WAS NFL 11 8 120 265 45.30% 1658 10 12 59.6 12 6.26 83 4.97 4.46 150.7 4 Steve Beuerlein 1988 23 4-110 RAI NFL 10 8 105 238 44.10% 1643 8 7 66.6 26 6.9 215 6.25 4.82 164.3 5 Jim Everett 1986 23 3-Jan RAM NFL 6 5 73 147 49.70% 1018 8 8 67.8 8 6.93 50 5.56 4.95 169.7 6 Bernie Kosar 1985 22 1-Jan CLE NFL 12 10 124 248 50.00% 1578 8 7 69.3 19 6.36 121 5.74 4.88 131.5 7 Donovan McNabb 1999 23 2-Jan PHI NFL 12 6 106 216 49.10% 948 8 7 60.1 28 4.39 204 3.67 2.41 79 8 Jack Trudeau 1986 24 Feb-47 IND NFL 12 11 204 417 48.90% 2225 8 18 53.5 29 5.34 213 3.78 3.05 185.4 9 John Elway* 1983 23 1-Jan DEN NFL 11 10 123 259 47.50% 1663 7 14 54.9 28 6.42 218 4.53 3.33 151.2 10 Eli Manning 2004 23 1-Jan NYG NFL 9 7 95 197 48.20% 1043 6 9 55.4 13 5.29 83 3.85 3.21 115.9 11 Craig Whelihan 1997 26 6-197 SDG NFL 9 7 118 237 49.80% 1357 6 10 58.3 21 5.73 168 4.33 3.33 150.8 12 Gus Frerotte 1994 23 7-197 WAS NFL 4 4 46 100 46.00% 600 5 5 61.2 3 6 18 4.75 4.44 150 13 Don Majkowski 1987 23 10-255 GNB NFL 7 5 55 127 43.30% 875 5 3 70.2 10 6.89 77 6.61 5.57 125 14 Vinny Testaverde 1987 24 1-Jan TAM NFL 6 4 71 165 43.00% 1081 5 6 60.2 18 6.55 140 5.52 4.21 180.2 15 Billy Joe Tolliver 1989 23 Feb-51 SDG NFL 5 5 89 185 48.10% 1097 5 8 57.9 9 5.93 75 4.52 3.93 219.4 16 Scott Brunner 1980 23 6-145 NYG NFL 16 3 52 112 46.40% 610 4 6 53.1 10 5.45 76 3.75 2.82 38.1 17 Cody Carlson 1988 25 Mar-64 HOU NFL 6 5 52 112 46.40% 775 4 6 59.2 10 6.92 72 5.22 4.2 129.2 18 Boomer Esiason 1984 23 Feb-38 CIN NFL 10 4 51 102 50.00% 530 3 3 62.9 5 5.2 52 4.46 3.77 53 19 Craig Krenzel 2004 23 5-148 CHI NFL 6 5 59 127 46.50% 718 3 6 52.5 23 5.65 158 4 2.33 119.7 20 Mike McMahon 2001 22 5-149 DET NFL 8 3 53 115 46.10% 671 3 1 69.9 21 5.83 122 5.97 4.15 83.9 21 Brent Pease 1987 23 11-295 HOU NFL 7 3 56 113 49.60% 728 3 5 60.6 5 6.44 36 4.98 4.47 104 22 Kurt Kittner 2003 23 5-158 ATL NFL 7 4 44 114 38.60% 391 2 6 32.5 5 3.43 30 1.41 1.1 55.9 23 Ryan Leaf 1998 22 2-Jan SDG NFL 10 9 111 245 45.30% 1289 2 15 39 22 5.26 140 2.67 1.93 128.9 24 John Skelton 2010 22 ARI NFL 5 4 60 126 47.60% 662 2 2 62.3 9 5.25 65 4.86 4.05 132.4 25 Michael Vick 2001 21 1-Jan ATL NFL 8 2 50 113 44.20% 785 2 3 62.7 21 6.95 113 6.11 4.31 98.1
Slap is really a pretty good dude and knows football well. I have known him on forums since 1999 or so.
Tim tebow is john elway and emmitt smith combined Denying this is outside the realm of reality. The sooner us life long jets fans can accept this fact that our new honorary fans are trying to share with us the better everyone will feel.
The problem with your list is that you used very arbitrary criteria without any context. Without knowing how other QBs were performing at the time, you can't say that these QBs were "good" or "bad". Furthermore, you need to have clear criteria about what constitutes a "starter" in terms of games played/games started in order to differentiate between QBs who were backups getting playing time and genuine starters. IMO, a starter is a QB who started at least 8 games. The chart below summarizes the passing games for the last 29 years (1983-2011). I've given sample years prior to 1997 and all the years from 1997 forward, so that you can see the change in the passing game over that period. Code: Year Attempts Cmpls Comp % Yds TDs TD% INTs INT% 1983 31.4 17.8 56.9 204.6 1.4 4.4 1.4 4.4 1988 31.5 17.1 54.3 200.7 1.2 3.9 1.2 3.9 1992 29.9 17.2 57.5 187.6 1.2 3.8 1.2 3.9 1997 32.8 18.4 56.2 201.8 1.3 3.9 1.0 3.0 1998 32.3 18.3 56.6 205.0 1.4 4.2 1.1 3.3 1999 33.8 19.3 57.1 212.3 1.3 4.0 1.1 3.4 2000 32.9 19.1 58.2 206.9 1.3 3.9 1.1 3.3 2001 32.6 19.2 59.0 205.8 1.3 3.9 1.1 3.4 2002 33.8 20.1 59.6 212.2 1.4 4.0 1.0 3.1 2003 32.2 18.9 58.8 200.4 1.3 4.0 1.1 3.3 2004 31.9 19.1 59.8 210.5 1.4 4.5 1.0 3.2 2005 32.2 19.1 59.5 203.5 1.3 3.9 1.0 3.1 2006 32.0 19.1 59.8 204.8 1.3 4.0 1.0 3.1 2007 33.3 20.4 61.2 214.3 1.4 4.2 1.0 3.1 2008 32.3 19.7 61.0 211.3 1.3 3.9 0.9 2.8 2009 33.3 20.3 60.9 218.5 1.4 4.2 1.0 3.1 2010 33.7 20.5 60.8 221.6 1.5 4.3 1.0 3.0 2011 34.0 20.4 60.1 229.7 1.5 4.3 1.0 2.9 * stats from Pro Football ReferenceIn Elway's first starting season, 1983, the league passing % was only 56.9%, so his 47+% was less than 10% points off the league average. Elway's 23.5/game attempts was about 3/4 of the league average. In Tebow's first starting season, 2011, the league passing % is 60.1% while Tebow's completion % of 46+ is even less than Elway's. Furthermore, Tebow's 19.3 attempts per game is only about 57% of the passing attempts of all QBs in 2011. Your attempt to use statistics to "prove" that Elway was terrible as a first year starter, and so, that Tebow's lousy stats as a first year starter are immaterial, is a FAIL. The league has changed significantly in the last 30 years, particularly the passing game. While Elway's stats were not very good, in the context of the times, they were acceptable for a first year starter, especially for a rookie. In today's NFL, Tebow's stats as a first year starter are NOT acceptable. A team in the 21st century NFL cannot expect to win many games when its starting QB completes only 10 passes a game. Over a 16 game season, that projects to only completing 160 passes for less than 2000 yards and 14 TDs when the average league projections are for 326 completions for nearly 3700 yards and 24 TDs. Tebow needs to significantly improve his passing game before he's considered anything but a gimmick QB, and you citing all the stats in the world is NOT going to cover that up.
That is the bottom line.... but he'll sell a lot of Jerseys and put asses in seats. I bet there will be more Tebow jerseys out there over Sanchez jerseys before he even takes a snap...
