Give the team time. Most of you are just jealous morons of the success that the Pats are having and are neurotic dumbas**es. Just give the team time, I can see parts of our game which are way better than a normal 3-13 team.
There's a difference between "we had a bad season" and "we f*cking sucked". If you don't know that now you will figure it out after you've watched the Jets a bit longer. I've had the privilege of watching just a handful of Jets teams that went 4-12 or worse. All of them, with the exception of Walt Michaels 1st and 4th seasons with the Jets, were headed towards failure and eventual regime change. Michaels had two seasons left and was gone after 1982 despite winning 16 games and losing 8 in the next two seasons. You have a season as bad as the Jets have just had under Mangini and what it means is that the coach can't get it done and likely won't. That's just the way it is. There's nothing about Mangini that was not true for the previous guys in his position. If anything he's done less than they did before they got the heave-ho. Walton, Coslet and Edwards all took the Jets to the playoffs also, but 4-12 meant they were headed out the door. It'll be the same story here, whether it's this offseason or next Mangini has already shot his wad.
So we've had a bad season. That sucks. I'm not going to lose sleep over it cause well...we weren't that good anyway. Doesn't mean Mangini hasn't done anything or won't get anything done. Cool. Mangini is Mangini, not Kotite, not Groh, not Carroll, not Walter. If you want to continue living in the past, thats cool. Mangini has shown some signs of intelligence as a head coach and that matters more to me than you whining about a season where we never had a chance to win the Super Bowl anyway. So...the fact that he walked into a situation with a QB who may or may not have played again, a RB who wasn't going to play again, one decent O-lineman, a D-line that really didn't fit any scheme, and no secondary to speak of should affect any of this? I do agree it's sad what the man has done to this franchise. I mean...Cotchery seeing playing time, Rhodes breaking out, drafting Mangold, D'Brick, Revis, Harris, E. Smith, B. Smith, and Leon, and seeing better play from DRob, Ellis, Hobson, and Thomas...theres no hope with this kind of trash. Mangini is an idiot and this one season after his one good one is enough to tell us he's terrible. Of course. I am also outraged that Mangini has failed to win us a Super Bowl in year 2. Thumbs. Down. That "I've seen it before" stuff may work on sites like JI, but its boring as hell to hear a bunch of older fans whine about how "this team has been rebuilding for 38 years." Especially when the current coach is 36 years old. Again...it's YOUR problem that you think he should be fired because you wanted the OL AND DL fixed in 2 offseasons...not Mangini's.
No, we've had a terrible season. If it was just a bad season things would be different, but it's a terrible season, as bad as we've had around here in a decade and one of the 5 or 6 worst of all time for the Jets. What you're not getting in all of this is exactly how bad the Jets have become in a very short period of time under Mangini and Tannenbaum. There have been only a handful of teams in Jets history that have allowed more points than this team will wind up giving up this season, probably about 360 or so. There have been only a handful of teams that have scored as few points as this team will wind up scoring, probably about 270. There are only really 6 teams in Jet's history that have been as bad as this team: 2005, 1996, 1995, 1989, 1976 and 1975. 2005 was an injury clusterf*ck of amazing proportions, 1996 and 1995? Kotite. 1989 was the end of the Walton era, with injuries all over the place and the heart of the team ripped out after Klecko left. 1976 was a Lou Holtz special. 1975 the confused end of the Weeb Ewbank era with his son-in-law running the team. All of those teams have one thing in common: they marked the end of an era in Jet's history. Some of the eras were long and glorious like Weeb's and other were short and ignominious like Holtz and Kotite's but they all came to an end when the product on the field was this bad. Mangini has no excuses this season. The Jets have not lost a host of players to the injury bug the way that the 2005 and 1989 teams did. They aren't at a moment of great transition with the previous coach walking away from a former champion now turned into a relic the way the 1975 and 1976 teams were. That kind of leaves 1995 and 1996 as the appropriate comparison at this point and based on the way the Jets have played, losing a ton of tight games and being dominated in the second half 1995 is probably the most appropriate comparison. Mangini is turning in a Kotite-esque season right down to the bland press conferences, with reporters afraid to ask what's really on their mind and Mangini giving no clues at all that he knows what has gone wrong. I'm a longtime Jet's fan. I hate this. This is the smell of the cellar enveloping a team in a generational shroud. I've seen it before in the mid-70's but not since then. Leon Hess finally woke up and got Parcells to save us when the 90's threatened to do this. We need Woody to wake up and realize what's happened to the team and find somebody to save us.
Will one more year with Mangini really kills us? Most of the games we lost have been close games, and the team has not had a legitimate quarterback all season. The offensive line and quarterback were underestimated problems in the offseason, that is largely on Mangini and Tannenbaum. But we made the playoffs last season with a fairly untalented roster, and I'm willing to give a coach whose team has shown some ability in two years a third year to see what he can do. If the team is this bad next season, no doubt Mangini should go.
Lol. So...we just went 10-6 when we shouldn't have...now we're 3-12 but the talent level is slowly building up...and you want to jump ship because you've made up your mind on him? Makes. Complete. Sense. Cause hiring a new guy mid-way through a rebuilding process is going to speed everything up I'm sure...hey rebuild the O-lines (at least he has a LT and C) and D-lines, find us some new WRs, a pass rusher, another corner, and another safety new guy...you have two weeks or Br4dw4y5ux will have to take over. Sorry, I see no resemblance between this team and the Kotite teams. At all. The Kotite teams had no direction, no leadership, no fire, no real future in site...Mangini has had 2 drafts that have netted us most of the players worth even mentioning when talking about the Jets, and the others have either played better under him or just straight up broken out under him (Cotch and Rhodes). So please spare us all the doom and gloom BS. This is not some legendarily bad season where theres no light at the end of the tunnel. All we've seen is improvement from this team as the season has gone on. Not my problem if you choose to ignore it. So keep crying and whining about 2007...bitching about our HC and whatever else you choose to do...but any real Jets fan would notice the players have played better for this guy...the fact that we suck is a testament to how big a rebuilding job this actually is....not the bad job he is doing. But then you're the guy who actually found a reason to complain about drafting Revis and Harris. For a long time fan you sure didn't show much knowledge of the draft process there. Rhodes Harris Revis D'Brick Mangold Thomas (if we get a good OLB across from him) E. Smith Cotchery Leon = a future. Sorry if thats flying over your head while you sulk and whine about how bad our coaching staff is, but talent wins games and it takes time to build up. Those are 9 future pieces to this franchise...all that broke out or were drafted under Mangini. Not that that matters to you...because 2007 didn't go right. It's the hell of rebuilding. At least this time we're doing it right. I apologize it's not going fast enough to please you. I love this part though... So...despite the fact that the best players he inherited from Herm was an old, decent at best G, an inconsistent former top 5 pick at DT, a 30 year old DE coming off his worst season, a WR with a ton of wear and tear on his body, a QB nobody thought would play again, a future FA oft injured elite pass rusher (that Mangini turned into an elite young C), and a good, young MLB....Mangini had no excuses? Are you kidding me? Are you actually saying the man should have had this team completely done and ready to compete for a SB in his second season? Or at least be a really good team? Are you kidding me? It's funny too...nobody in the NFL trashes the Jets as a team...nor is our coaching staff ever trashed...but because his press conferences and one bad season don't please you he should be shown the door? I don't give a crap about the injury bug...anybody and their mother could have predicted this team playing worse this year....it comes with rebuilding. Anyway...I'd love to see what you would have done last offseason differently that would have made this team sooo much better.
LOL this is really odd I am sticking up for Bradwaysux. In general he is negative on this staff and FO. However it is not coming from a lack of knowledge. To his credit the majority of trade up's do not work. He stated this. I think where he was wrong is that he made this blanket statement in relation to the Jets, where ordinarily in most cases, he would be 100% correct. This draft was weak/ devoid of top tier talent and usually trade ups are a disaster because teams wholesale their draft and other future drafts for that one "super" talented player. Inevitably that one player never lives up to hype and sets a franchise back years. The Jets did not do that. If you look at this draft a shit load of mid round players have been cut. Take New England as an example they have just the first two players they drafted left on their roster and I think they drafted 10 players. Now I know that they have a much deeper roster than us but the Jets have a draft pick of theirs on the practice squad that can not crack the lineup either. Personally, I think Revis and Harris are light years better than any player that was drafted where they were. Without exception all the other top tier players were picked ahead of the 14 spot where Revis was picked. From 14 on down I can not think of 2 players that are anywhere close to them talent wise. Getting back to Bradway. I do not think he dislikes Revis or Harris, I think he thinks that the Jets would be better off with the 4 picks versus the 2 picks. Like I said, looking back at past trade ups normally he would be correct. I think he flipped his lid when the Jets first did this. He thinks this was done as more arrogance on the FO's part, where they thought they were only a couple of players away. We look at it more as being flexible and getting the players they wanted/needed more. He also stated they were luxury picks. Looking back in hindsight we see that ILB and CB are in fact not luxuries in the least. I think his stance towards the draft has mellowed some............ I could be wrong in that regard. (I am sure he will say) However, I would hope looking at the 2006 in a vacuum the other players in the draft were not near as talented or had the impact for their teams like Revis and Harris. Like it or not they are two of the top performers on this defense. Shit this weekend as an example the Titans hardly threw the ball in Revis's direction and Harris was his usual stout self. Anyway, he is a knowledgeable negative poster that will give an opinion that is grounded with facts. You may or may not agree but at least he is not an idiot troll like one of the jackasses that follows me around for instance.
Parcells may have turned the losing mentality around here - but the one thing he did not do is stock the team for the future. He built us up for a run and after the run fell short(no indictment of him - winning a championship isn't easy) he left the cupboard a little bare. At no point following Parcells have we had a coach/gm interested in rebuilding organizational depth. Manny/Tanny have come in and been willing to bite the bullet and endure what is not so popular to ensure that they build up the franchise as a whole and progress towards their own vision of what it takes to win a championship. Last years record may have deluded alot of people into thinking we were better than we were. This years record is definitely deluding people into believing that we are alot worse off than we really are. The reality falls somewhere in the middle - we are still in a rebuilding phase. Our GM is bringing in talented players every draft. Our coach is developing those players. Our GM has brilliantly brought us out of the cap hell that was created under previous regimes. Our coach has gotten even the most critical of players(see Coles) to buy into his system even in a down year. This team is heading in the right direction - plain and simple.
Revis and Harris have both shown that they are going to be very good players and now that the Jets have them, I'm happy. What Bradwaysux correctly points out is that the Jets have, for years, ignored the most important part of a football team - the trenches. Other than drafting Ferguson and Mangold, the OL has been ignored for years. It's time it became a priority. And while the DL is filled with first round picks, those picks were made by a different regime and do no fit the scheme. Ellis was done about 5 minutes after he the 04 season when he got that big contract. In retrospect (although I believed this at the time also) Ellis was a complementary player who had one good year in 04 and one big game in a big spot against the Steelers in the playoffs. He was nowhere near an elite player and now is below average, whether it is because he is just not that good or in the wrong scheme or (as I think) both. Robertson has come on lately, but he is a one gap player in a 2 gap scheme. The rest of the line is pedestrian, filled with cast offs and average players. Looking back today, I have come 360 degrees and believe that the Jets should have given Abraham the money and kept him. This defense need playmakers and I'd rather have a player that sacks the QB 10+ times, forces 5 fumbles a year and puts constant pressure on the QB (making the offense account for him) even though he is injury prone and misses games. This defense badly needs impact players. Until the Jets upgrade the OL and obtain front 7 impact defensive players that fit the 3-4 scheme, the Jets will be a losing team. It doesn't matter who the QB, RBs or WRs are until these huge gaping festering holes are fixed. The problem with this regime, however, is that they did not see these weakneses in this team and the problem with the fans, IMO, is that many don't see it either and think giving Clemens another year to develop and using the draft of RBs and WRs and filling in the defense and OL with FAs and mid and late round draft picks will put this team back on the path. This offseason has to be completely devoted, in FA and the draft, to improving the trenches. Period. Until the DL stops getting pushed 3-4 yards on every running play and until the Jets develop a pass rush with talent rather than schemes and bliltzes and until the offense opens holes for a running game and until the OL gives whoever the QB more than a milisecond to pass, this team will continue to lose.
I believe Bradwaysuxs needs the offseason the most of all the posters here. You were positive after the 06 draft and not so positive after the 07. Hopefully you are positive again after the upcoming draft.................. One thing I would like to know though out of you older posters is have you ever seen a situation like this??? Because I see you trying to compare records and what season a coach won more games in before they were fired, but how many of them had a team like ours??? QB wise, RB wise, OL wise, Defensively........... hell the team had one all pro level talent in Vilma on the whole team. I think EM deserves some time to build the team up.
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes & yes. This guy 'JOE WILLIE' is the smartest person on the board in my humble yet correct opinion. Every average football fan sees the QB's, and to a lesser extent, the WR's & RB's with the ball so they think THAT'S the most important thing. YES, Brady & Moss are good. But without an awesome line, they're average.
Joe Willie Withe Shoes, Abraham has missed large amounts of time every year he has been in Atlanta. IMO, the guy is an injury wuss and would serve no purpose on this team other than to bring out the Pussy in the entire team.
Ellis, Hobson, and Barton have been playing better under Mangini? Would Ellis get another big contract like the one he got under Herm based on how he is playing now? That proves he was a good player in the 4-3 but he is missing in action in the 3-4 (Mangini's scheme). Barton was a big impact player in his first season as a jet and then I believe he was out with an injury. He is average at best now. Hobson was a good tackler as an ILB, he is a nobody now. Let's not forget Vilma, I believe he made the Pro bowl his first year under Herm. Look what he did in his first two years under Mangini. Nothing. Herm did not have a young 3-4. He was playing the 4-3 which is why the front seven were playing better. But Mangini forced them to play the 3-4 which is why they are playing so bad except for when he plays DRob at DE and Pouha or Mosley at NT. I admit that Mangini rarely gets blown out. Last year he won the close games but he is losing them this year. But he gets payed to win and he is not doing the best possible when he plays players out of position. He was good playing NE the last time but why doesn't he do that every game?
The Jets have had 3 or 4 good young players on defense and had the next half decade turn into utter crap before. Look at 1988 and 1989 to understand why having Rhodes, Revis and Harris is great but augurs absolutely nothing for the future.
I've been a Jets fan for over 35 years and in no way would I compare this team/regime with the Kotite years. First Kotite was coming off a 7 game losing streak from his final year of destroying the Eagles when he took over here. He then proceeded to go 3-13 and 1-15. Kotite could not coach, draft, or have any direction whatsoever. He was a bad offensive coordinator to begin with and failed in his previous HC job. The trend with Kotite was obvious. With Tanny/Manny the Jets overachieved and won one less game in 2006 than Kotites last 3 seasons combined. Also take into account that Tangini had a total rebuilding job on their hands and Kotite did not. This regime has drafted well, Kotite did not. I honestly don't know how you can compare the two. Yes this has been a disaster of a season, but I think they deserve another season to right the ship. They have show enough in drafting ability and discipline and also have already taken the team to the playoffs in year one to have an optimistic outlook. Lets see if they have learned from their mistakes this year and make rebuilding the lines the top priority. I also think that Manny has hurt himself in his choices of assistants. Sutton, Wise, and Schott are terrible. I'm interested in seeing what replacements he makes, and that should be telling what direction we are headed. I also don't agree with your blanket statement that 3 wins or less in a season in unrecoverable for a coach/regime. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 his first year with the Cowboys and didn't have a winning season until year 3. We all know how that turned out.
There are threads on this elsewhere so I'm not going to recapitulate the entire argument, however in short it's this simple: you can count on the fingers one hand (actually I believe it's just one coach) the people who managed to do as poor as 3-13 in any season other than their first season and then subsequently had success with the same team. The NFL is just not that tough a competition. If you know what you're doing as a coach you can squeeze 4 or 5 wins out of a team after you've had them for a year. If you can't it means your chances are vanishingly small to ever achieve anything with that team.
Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his debut season when he took over an aging team with a rookie QB. It was expected that the Cowboys were going to have massive problems in 1989. Bill Walsh went 2-14 in his first year. That team was also expected to be hot garbage. Both coaches quickly turned those teams around. I believe there are ZERO head coaches in league history who coached their teams to sub-.200 records in a season that was not their debut season with the team and were able to turn the team into a success. (I will both recheck my research and post all of it tonight or tomorrow hopefully, but certainly before Sunday.)
Well I guess we can agree to disagree then. I'm not buying the blanket statement that a magical number of losses (in this case 3) automatically means the coach won't have future success with the same team. There are too many variables that go into the success/failure of a team and IMO a win total by itself doesn't indicate the future success of that coach on that team. You could just as easily say that a coach that goes 13-3 will never have a bad period on that same team, which of course is false. As a CPA I can tell you that statistics are very misleading and can be manipulated to prove or disprove a given argument. I might feel differently if the Jets were getting blown out every week, or if we had lost a lot of games last year. The main difference between last year and this year is that we won the close games last season and are losing them this year. Would your opinion be any different if that was reversed? It's funny - I'm actually pessimistic by nature, but I'm willing to give this staff another year. I've seen enough promise by their drafts, and the results of last season to give them another year.
So you're saying that if Manny wins against KC and we're 4-12 instead of 3-13 that changes things? What about if last year we went 3-13 and this year we're 10-6? Does that change things?
QFT, especially that first paragraph. This is very true, and it's why the fact that our talent level is going up means way much more than our W-L record to me. As long as were not embarrassingly bad, and as long as we keep drafting well....I think Mangini will do great things for this team. But most fans don't want to have greatness in a few years, they want it NOW or YESTERDAY or in a couple minutes or something thats not....years.
