FWIW, Gene Michael said Mattingly was an excellent hitting coach and the hardest working he's ever seen, going well beyond his expectations.
I don't want this move based solely on this post-season. I'm not making a huge deal about the lineup changes, putting Sheffield at 1B, etc. He hasn't had the team ready to play when the post-season begins. The dynasty teams didn't need motivation, they were built for the playoffs and knew what to do on their own when they got there. As far as Jeter motivating this team, it's just not going to happen. I think Jeter is a great player and I love having him on the team, but he's not a good captain. He's not going to speak up and get the team motivated. That's the problem here, every player is programmed to believe that this is Jeter's team and no one can say anything. The only person in that dugout other than Jeter who is "allowed" to speak up to the team is the manager, and Torre doesn't do that in the playoffs. He's held his "closed-door meetings" in the regular season, and to his credit they seem to pick the team up. But he hasn't done it in the post-season. Torre needs to speak up to this team. He still thinks he can manage like he managed the 96-00 Yankees, but he can't. That's been his problem (that and questionable in-game management.) He's not going to change his style, so instead, the Yankees need to change the style themselves.
Ouch. Very ouch. But well put considering Rick Down was fired for similar reasons if I remember correctly.
I have to pick you apart here. Not because I don't respect your opinion, but more because these are the same points made by everyone who supports Torre. It is Joe's job to motivate the team. As a matter of fact, that's almost his entire job. In today's game, there are so many other coaches to help a manager make in-game decisions, that it really isn't the job of the manager anymore. The pitching coach makes a lot of decisions about who gets up in the pen. The hitting coach is there for working on hitter's swings. And the bench coach is there for defensive adjustments and things of that nature. A manager in the majors today needs to be able to keep control of the team. That was sorely lacking this series. As I said many times over the course of the season, this team won in spite of Joe, not because of him. This is where we all are in Mangini's corner. Making adjustments. Torre made the wrong ones, at the wrong time. Why was Sheff still in the game with two perfect PH opportunites last night? Why was there no closed door meeting he was so famous for in the past? He failed his job this year. All the success in the world for 162 games means nothing. All that matters is being the last team to win a game that year. As far as Matsui over Melky, no way. Melky was there all year. The kid did what he needed to do all year long. How about when he stole a homer from Manny? Matsui could NEVER do that. Someone already brought up a play that Matsui let bounce that Melky would have caught. That's key in the playoffs. Defense wins titles. If you don't give up runs, you will eventually score the one you need. As far as Sheff, you can't say "well it was only 1b." He screwed up a couple plays. That was big. It's the same complaint that people made about Giambi. Well IMO, I would rather have had Giambi at first. Allowing a guy who learned less than 2 weeks ago to play the position is damning. Joe was the major reason we lost this series. That's why his job is on the line. In all honesty, he deserves it if he does get the axe.
I've read that Giambi is quite vocal in the clubhouse and I have a hard time believing Shef doesn't say anything.
I liked what Torre did for the Yankees...He handled alot well, the media and of course, The Boss...But at this point, a change is needed. We all know Joe's problems, so no point in getting back into it... I've been pro-Piniella for a good while...Though nothing is official, so i'm not gonna jump the gun until it happens...I think it'd be good. A guy with intensity and new attitude, who could possibly get ARod to stop playing like he is, possibly, not sure though... I'll voice more about this as the week progresses...Pretty rough weekend, Yankees and today's failure at Jacksonville.
According to everything that's been said (since none of us really know for sure) the only time people speak up is when Torre gives them the floor to say what's on their mind during his closed-door meetings. The first thing you hear when a new free agent comes in is them saying "I know this is Jeter's team". They just get in line behind Jeter. The problem is Jeter, for all the good he does as a player, isn't a leader type, and is a poor "captain". When everyone was getting on A-Rod, it didn't matter who supported him, if Jeter didn't say anything, the entire team hated him. I do know that Giambi really got on A-Rod which is good, and I think he is the one guy that does tend to speak up once in a while. But a guy like Sheff only says anything of substance to the media, by all accounts people seem to think he's pretty quiet in the clubhouse. Because of this, they need a manager who will light a fire under them, something that Torre obviously can't do anymore.
My point is that I don't think Torre should take the main responsibility for this loss. We simply didn't have players step up when they should have. Do any of you guys think any manager could have lit a fire under a team like this? Do you think Pinella would get in Sheffields face and get him pumped up? I personally think there are some players on the team that would not react well to that. Maybe we should fire Torre. However before doing so, lets consider whether we are better off with a replacement.
Coaches back Torre BY JIM BAUMBACH Newsday Staff Writer To those who worked closely with Joe Torre for the past eight months, news of his anticipated dismissal was shocking. And if it's not too late, they urged George Steinbrenner to reconsider. "All I know is this man has won ever since he has been here, and I hope there is a lot of consideration done to make sure that the right decision is made," pitching coach Ron Guidry said. First-base coach Tony Peña said, "To find somebody to handle this club and manage it the way Joe Torre has done for years, it's going to be very, very tough to find that somebody." Bullpen coach Joe Kerrigan said, "If anyone is solid here or in all sports, that should be Joe. He should be allowed to leave when he wants to for all he's done for this franchise and the city." The way the Yankees fell apart in the postseason -- they played as if they weren't interested in competing in Games 3 and 4 of the Division Series against the Tigers -- figures to ultimately doom Torre. But Guidry, Peña and Kerri.gan pointed to how Torre held the Yankees together when Hideki Matsui and Gary Sheffield were sidelined with wrist injuries as evidence that Torre still has his magic touch. "To be honest with you, sometimes I'll ask myself, 'How was Joe able to deal with everything?'" Peña said. "I do not think that anybody can ask Joe to do more than what he did this season." Guidry said, "I think you have to think about what you really want to do to make sure you don't make a mistake. Because the job he did with this team is probably the best job I've seen him do. I saw the others from the outside, but I was here for this one." Lou Piniella, the hands-down favorite to become Torre's successor, was Guidry's teammate on the Yankees from 1975-84. Although Guidry had nothing but praise for Piniella yesterday, he made it clear his allegiance is with Torre. "I know Lou and I know the job he has done elsewhere, and maybe in the future, maybe it would be done. I don't know," Guidry said. "I just don't know that right now you need to do it." Guidry added that he would like to return for a second season as pitching coach and hopes he will be working for Torre again. But would he want to work for someone else? "That I don't know, because that didn't happen yet," Guidry said. "I'll make up my mind when I'm duck hunting." http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spcoach1009,0,2033032.story
Francesa on NBC talking about it right now. Bill Madden, who has been great friends with Steinbrenner ever since he became the owner, said this is the angriest George has EVER been. The only way Torre stays is if Cashman wants him to stay and can somehow get Steinbrenner to reconsider, and sources say that has a zero percent chance of happening (and considering Cashman was upset with Torre's bullpen management this year, I doubt he'd stick up for him much, anyway.)
Wow, the angriest George has ever been? More than firing Yogi a week and a half into a season? More than firing Billy Martin for the 86th time? Honestly, yeah, I can believe George has had it at this point. Too many times now, Torre has taken a roster that reads like a nationally televised game on a Tuesday in July, and shit the bed. As of right now, George is still trying to make up his mind. I'm behind The Boss no matter what he chooses. Whether that is Pinella, Girardi, or bringing back Joe. The only advantage to bringing back Joe for one more year that wasn't there the last time his job was on the line, is that Joe can't fall back on his success this time. The last time George threatened Joe, everyone was like WHAT?!? This time, Joe's got to know that he is going to be under a microscope. Maybe what George does now is bring in Girardi and force him into the dugout, whether Joe wants him or not. That would probably be a nice spark, to tell Torre "Hey, remember Yogi? We have no problem firing a guy after Opening Day. Watch your ass."
The Vets on the team,the ones left over from the WS run seem like they are gonna be pissed if Joe is gone. So far he has recieved public support from Jeter,Mariano,Posada.
George this angry means BAD news for Yankee fans. Changing managers won't mean a thing if Steinbrenner doesn't realize that the team is not being built right.
Not being built right? All we need is a couple of pitchers and maybe an addition to the bullpen. We don't even need to touch the lineup,infact we have too much there.
Yelling will work. If Torre only acted like a big baby like Lou, then the Yanks would have won. I mean look at what Lou did in Tampa, the man is a genius.
Not trying to start another salary argument but I think a payroll of 250 million would be a pretty good indication that the team isn't being built correctly.
They should really do Torre the favor of firing him at this point. Being the manger of the Yanks is a thankless job, he's done it well....but he has shown signs of complacency lately (from a Met fan's perspective)....he obviously didn't consider the worst case scenario in Detroit and thus left Wang at home.....big mistake amongst others
