if we convince them that we’re taking the tackle I think they would want to trade....they have their QB and they need a tackle. if JD can convince them that we’re taking the tackle because we’re not all in on Fields I think it’s possible. that would be the best outcome ... they are not taking a QB at 2, and this would allow us to move back one spot and still trade out to a team that wants Fields. I don’t think Wilson will go that high...so if we move back a few spots we can still take Wilson a few picks later probably.... I don’t know much, and nothing about Wilson, but I am out on Fields....I don’t think he’s ready for the NFL where he won’t have 10 seconds to finish d a receiver, and his receivers won’t have five yards of space around them. Because THAT is what he’s used to. Count me out.
Unless something really negative comes out about Wilson, or his Combine or individual workouts (if they happen) are bad, I think Wilson has a very good chance of being considered the #2 QB prospect by the draft and rated closer to Lawrence than Fields has been. I also think that Lawrence will come back some as the "experts" nit pick and find flaws. I've been seeing a lot to that extent about both on Twitter over the last several weeks. If that happens, we would probably have to take Wilson at #2 if we want him, and could even wind up with Lawrence at #2.
It feels like a lot of people here are in a rush to get a QB. My question is why? Next year will be all rebuild so there is no rush to settle on a QB this draft. There is no point using a top 40 pick on a QB were not hot for. We use this draft to get some capital for next draft and get our guy then. Right now the second pick is worth about 2 seconds to team picking in the top 10. Probably 2 seconds and 2 thirds to a team picking lower. First thing we should do is see if Fields can improve his value. On the other side of that, if he bombs in the playoffs his pick could be worth less. I'm in no rush to draft a QB not named Trevor Lawrence this year.
Yes, raw skills can be molded - up to a point - but the real difference between a mediocre and a great QB is those things that are natural and can't really be learned. And these traits are really hard to identify in a prospect. Almost all the "big fails" at QB, some of whom you mentioned, didn't fail because of physical shortcomings but of mental ones. Again, this is the big difference I see between Mahomes and most everyone else (and Watson for that matter). I actually DID see that superior mental aspect in Allen, but I really questioned whether he could improve his accuracy enough, I'm a firm believer - despite Allen's obvious improvement - that a large part of accuracy is something you're born with, even though it can be honed and improved, the hand-eye-brain connection is stronger in some than in others. All of this is to say that I do not see that superior mental aspect in Fields. And when he's under pressure I don't see the accuracy hold up. As I told MeanDeanIII in another post, I admit to not having seen much of Fields so I could be wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing him against Alabama and am willing to admit it if I was wrong.
I would just take Penei Sewell, pair him up with Becton and draft 4-5 WR/RBs in a row. Trevor Lawrence is the sexy pick, but he's not going to change things more than a dominant line and actual playmakers. This direction isn't as glamorous but will fix the main issue (along with a new head coach).
Regarding trading the #2 to Cinn. It would be tricky. But they could somehow get word we are talking to other teams that need a tackle which could force them to deal. No guarantees but I'm sure JD would use all leverage he can. Politely of course. EDIT - one more thing about CInn that never occurred to me while tracking draft positions. If they somehow win another game they could drop as low as 6th! That is something we hope lines up. So add rooting for a Cinn win down the stretch.
I agree to an extent that you cannot coach accuracy. But you also can fix accuracy to a certain extent if the mechanics need work which Allen's did and he worked hard to fix them. I think Allen is a bit of an anomaly at times though. I watched him at Wyoming and man he flung everything into the dirt or 5 yards over guys heads. But even the better schools and quarterbacks that go into Wyoming struggle to throw the ball because the stadium is an absolute wind tunnel. On calm nights you can see 20 MPH winds. I don't think there are many NFL stadiums that are comparable because even Green Bay/Buffalo/New England/Chicago don't have open ended end zones on both sides that swirl the crap out of the window inside. I didn't take any of that into account when I watched Allen. Fields plays in the cold weather Big Ten and has natural accuracy outside the numbers and really all over the field. He needs to learn to see the field better and read a defense pre-snap much better in terms of back end coverage. The good thing about him is that he knows when there's pressure in the pocket and he feels when there's a blitz coming. That's one thing that Sam just sucks at. Fields' problem is trying to take a 2nd and 6 versus a blitz or pressure that he feels and tries to run away from blitzers/break ever tackle that engages him because he's so big strong and fast. That's where the Wentz comparison comes in to play. And it's coachable. I also don't think that OSU offense nor receivers are similar to an NFL offense that will help fix those traits. It's all outside the numbers and deep balls (which he throws well). They're fast skinny long strider receivers that don't run a ton of slants, deep zone inside stops, etc. It's a lot of posts, outs, 9 routes and such. It makes sense when you have a good running game to stretch the defense out. His ability to throw over the middle will improve in a different offense because damn everything he throws is on the facemask with velocity.
Click on the link to see the negative things that personnel director says about Wilson. Take it with a grain of salt.
Other than Wentz none of the QB's were taken in the top 5. It's a value proposition. If you get lucky and get a Mahomes or Watson in the middle of the 1st round and then they work out you have really helped yourself. Lots of people taken in that position don't work out though and so the success of making that kind of pick is very hit-or-miss. there's a Christain Ponder and Blaine Gabbert for every Mahomes and Watson. Actually there are many misses for each of the hits. This is the total list of QB's taken 10 to 19 in the NFL draft since the merger: 2019 - Dwayne Haskins 2018 - Josh Rosen 2017 - Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson 2013 - E.J. Manuel 2011- Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder 2009 - Josh Freeman 2008 - Joe Flacco 2006 - Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler 2004 - Ben Roethlisberger 2003 - Kyle Boller 2000 - Chad Pennington 1999 - Duante Culpepper, Cade McNown 1991 - Dan McGwire 1983 - Jim Kelly, Tony Eason 1980 - Marc Wilson 1978 - Doug Williams 1977 - Steve Pisarkiewicz 1972 - Jerry Tagge, John Reaves That's the whole list and by that measure Mahomes and Watson look like extraordinary cases not like something you are normally going to see happen. I'll do the post on 2nd QB's taken high in the draft in a bit. It's not going to look much better than the list above.
Well this is a whole different point than your original one than I responded to... And I also don’t disagree in general. I’m not ready to take a QB second overall because we “need” one.
I don't think it's something that should be completely dismissed. It's one of the reasons why both Rosen and Manziel failed. Manziel had a lot more issues but living above the rules because he always has were common place. I don't know if any of it is valid though and if the rich/spoiled brat thing truly affects his attitude. It did with those two guys though.
To me, if it’s not a slam dunk then don’t spend the 2nd pick on it. I share the same concerns about Wilson and I’m even more concerned about Fields as a pro. Give me the top WR at 2, the best interior lineman in the late first and then one of Etienne or Harris if they are there, ride with Sam, hope that he can develop into the guy he should have been now that he will have a real coach. To me, you’re setting yourself up for success in the future way better this way than pinning it all on a QB that has question marks galore.
It sounds like he needs to work on touch and placement as well. Every pass can't be aimed at the facemask.
Definitely! That's why I posted it. We don't know yet if it is true or not. It is something that definitely bears watching.
I disagree. We pretty much know that Sam is not the answer, but even if he can be, I have doubts that it can happen here regardless of who the coach is or how good the offense is around him. The bad fundamentals will take time and focused work to be corrected. He may never learn to read Ds, see the whole field, improve his decision making, or stay healthy. With a new QB, there is always potential and possibility, and he wouldn't have all the negativity and bad experiences to work through.
I don’t necessarily disagree I just think I’d rather stock up on talent like Devonta Smith or Jamarr Chase when it’s available and then use that talent to help the QB we already have. But is that any more foolproof than taking a question mark second overall and hoping he’s better than what you have? Who knows. Luckily we’re the only franchise dumb enough to end up in this situation after having an absolutely perfect situation two years ago at this time. Just thinking about the amount of shit I took from everyone here every time I even implied Gase was going to do irreparable damage to Darnold...
I have been on record for wanting Sewell, hoping one can transition to right tackle. Many here think it wont make much of an impact without a qb, or one who is last in the league throwing from clean pocket. I dont have a good feeling about Wilson or Fields. While Sewell is the safest pick in this draft, besides maybe Lawrence, JD may try to trade down between 7 and 12ish slot. I like the TE from Florida a lot, think he is a stud, or the Wide receiver from Bama. Now if we stay at 2, perhaps we take LSU receiver.
it cost us a 1st ( #6) and 3 2nds to trade up from 6th to 3rd to get Sam! the bidding starts there, otherwise we use that pick ourselves. Douglas isn't any of his predecessors, doesn't buy high and sell low.
A quick thought regarding the post on 2nd QB's taken - does it change anything that Wilson/Fields will be the 2nd QB chosen after a clear #1 guy in TL? I think it's probably safe to say that the prospects who go after a "generational" guy are probably a little better than the average 2nd QB taken in a draft because they'd probably be going #1 in their draft most years.
