Sam just isnt good... (Merged)

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by championjets69, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    I just looked at the last 30 years of SB winning QBs, and vast majority of them are HOF QBs, and all but two (Foles, Dilfer, Flacco) multiple pro Bowl selections. Even if you look at coaches like Belichick and Carroll, good coaches, but didn't really do much without HOF QBs. Belichick all of the sudden looks very human now that he doesn't have Brady. For the Jets to succeed, we need a shot at guy like that too. It's obvious now Sam is not it. Lawrence is as close as you can get to a prospect who can be that guy.
     
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  2. Jets81

    Jets81 Well-Known Member

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    Just like Sanchez, Geno, Hackenberg, and every other scrub we drafted at QB, right?
     
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  3. Ray Lucas

    Ray Lucas Well-Known Member

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    When do we have a make a decision with him when it comes to his option?
     
  4. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    You left out the other half two thirds of the equation: great coaching, and great supporting talent. Now, if the QB is a truly great QB he needs less great talent around him, but those parts are still needed.

    There are 32 teams in the league and you listed 7 great QBs who are active, and some of them have played over 10 years, so the percentage of teams that have a great QB is relatively small. What do you do if you don't have one of these rare animals? You build your team to be able to do without one and still have a shot at a SB. When Darnold came into the league, flaws and all, he was capable of being a QB that could win a SB. Even into his 2nd year he was still that QB. But the lack of talent and bad coaching have taken their toll. IDK if he can regain that ability...I think he can, but probably not with the Jets, certainly not with Gase. And while Lawrence looks like he could be one of those great QBs, it's going to depend a LOT on who the HC is and what kind of talent he has around him.
     
  5. Falco21

    Falco21 Well-Known Member

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    I only named those because those are the QB's who are competing for a super bowl every year. Over the past 10 years it has been Brady, Manning, Big Ben, Mahomes, Brees, Wilson, Rodgers, etc.

    You had a Cam Newton, Jimmy G, Kaepernick, and Matt Ryan thrown in there, but those were exceptions to the rule. Year after year the great QBs dominate the league. Mahomes, Wilson, and Jackson look to be the new age group that will dominate.

    Of course many other factors come into play, but until you have a great QB who is one of the best in the league, you will not consistently find yourself fighting for a super bowl year after year
     
  6. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    But again, it wasn't them by themselves that made that possible. Great coaching, and at least above average, f not great, talent around them. Take one of those two things away and they likely don't get to, let alone win, a SB. It's like a 3 legged stool: you remove one of the legs and the stool doesn't work.

    I agree that having that great QB is much better, but you have to get the other things in place too. This is where the Jets have fucked up consistently. They go after Sanchez and then fail to retain the talent level around him, and had a HC who couldn't have cared less about QB development. Then they do the same thing wit Darnold! I'm not saying that either were what I would call "great", but they certainly had talent enough.

    So now we're hearing that Lawrence has Covid-19. What if he doesn't recover fully, or there are long term effects? What will all the "Tank for Trevor", "Trevor will save us!" people going to do? Maybe the Jets had better figure out if Darnold is salvageable and is good enough to carry them for a year or two until they can find the next "great" QB.
     
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  7. DefenseWinsChampionships

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    Exactly. Just look at Bill Belichick.

    5 years in Cleveland (multiple different QBs).

    4 losing seasons of 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5 and 5-11 (immediately fired).

    Bill never even sniffed a SB outside of a Wild Card LOSS throughout 1991-1995.

    1st year in N.E without Brady and with Drew Bledsoe? Lol 5-11!

    2nd season in N.E week 1 with Drew Bledsoe? Started off 0-1.

    And then it happened. Drew got injured and Brady was born.

    And fk the Matt Cassel year they went 11-5 and missed the playoffs without Brady. After 18-1 the year before.

    And now look @ Bill in NE currently. Welcome back to life in the NFL without the GOAT Brady and he's a loser again @ 2-4.

    Bill has a career losing record without Brady of 56-67. 11 games below .500.

    Career loser without Brady and it's not a small sample size either it's a full 123 games and well over 10 different QBs.

    The man is a fraud.
     
  8. Falco21

    Falco21 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we are disagreeing here. What I'm simply stating is that you are not going to consistently win in the playoffs and reach the super bowl with an above average QB.

    History has proven time and time again that the greats are the ones that consistently win. Whether that is basketball, football, etc.

    This is also going down the rabbit hole about how great the talent actually is and how much more amplified that talent is with a great QB. Brady proved that for years. For years he had average talent that he made great. Edleman is a great example of that recently. Tyler Lockett is one for Seattle.

    And then it proves itself in the opposite way. Look at OBJ. He is a 1,000 yard receiver year after year. One of the best in the game. He goes to Cleveland with an average QB, and he has not done shit since. He had 1,000 yards last year but had 4 TDs. His first three years with Eli he had 35 TDs
     
  9. Falco21

    Falco21 Well-Known Member

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    I don't often agree with you, but I agree with this 1000%.

    I have always said Bill is a fraud and without Brady is a joke. This year is proving that big time
     
  10. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    As to the premise that your odds of winning a SB being better with a great QB, yes, we agree.

    But the point I'm trying to make is that you can't always get one. Everyone is wetting their pants over Lawrence like he's guaranteed to be our savior. But even if we get him, he can't do it by himself - and that's assuming he is a good as advertised which is no guarantee either. How many clamoring for him now were hoping to get Darnold 3 years ago? Yes, of course, if he's there, and the Jets get a chance to take him - assuming he's recovered fully from Covid-19 and has no long term effects, they should take him. But they damn well had better already fired Gase and hired a HC that knows what he's doing, and they had damn well better add a lot more talent on the offense for a change.
     
  11. DefenseWinsChampionships

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    Exactly. I made a thread about it during the off-season.

    I even pointed out Brady was the reason NE had a "#1 defense" last year too and explained deeply why. In short A.) Brady gives his D's early leads to play with. B.) Brady keeps his D off the field due to chain moving drives and C.) It's happening in TB right now on Defense...

    I'll never respect Bill as an all time great coach however #12 Brady is the greatest I've ever witnessed and as a Jets fan? I never once feared "Bill" and I always had nightmares about Brady heading into our games for the past 20 years.

    Ppl claim it was Bill who won their first 3 rings. Nope. It was Parcells who left Bill with multiple Pro Bowl All Pro and HOF starters on Defense and Brady was able to help lead them there.

    He's a fraud. He was exposed in CLE as a loser and FIRED and is now becoming exposed X2 @ 2-4 in N.E.
     
  12. DefenseWinsChampionships

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    Please stop trying to compare Sam to Trevor as of 3 years ago compared to now. Sam NEVER played @ the type of level that Trevor has played. They are not the same types of prospects.

    Sam not only never sniffed 2 National Championship Games, never sniffed the type of statistical production of TL, Sam never played against the type of defenses that TL has faced and Sam was an absolute turnover MACHINE compared to Trevor who just almost set the NCAA record for most consecutive passes without an INT thrown.

    Trevor Lawrence is passing the likes of Dan Marino as the greatest ACC QB to ever play the game compared to Sam who wasn't better than Palmer, Leinart or even Sanchez coming out of USC let alone the greatest of his conference.

    35-1 doesn't lie. And neither does being on the verge of shattering Peyton Manning's passing records. He's shattering Watson's Clemson numbers too.

    To sit here and claim Darnold is the same type of elite prospect as a TREVOR LAWRENCE just goes to show me you really don't follow too much college football and if you do I guarantee you that you aren't watching the ACC and SEC over the years, Colorado lol.

    Sam became a National spotlight due to one game vs Penn State. TL been in the National Spotlight since H.S and never once played LINEBACKER like Sam lol
     
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  13. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Actually a lot of guys here have said Darnold is great; most of that was three or four years ago but FQB, VLT and HOF were thrown around like beads from a Mardi Gras float. Many of those guys are the same ones who want him dumped in the river today but they'll never admit to it. I just can't understand the rush to get rid of him without giving him the benefit of some decent coaching first. When he was drafted everyone recognized he was a work in progress - wouldn't it make sense to see if he can be rehabilitated?
     
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  14. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure it's in May which is why it is so important to change coaches now to see what he has inside that has been hidden by shitty coaching and a weak supporting cast.

    Having said that, I believe his salary for a fifth year would be mandated at around $35 million rather than the $25M figure that has been bandied about here. There's absolutely no way he should even come close to sniffing that, but...

    Fifth year option only comes into play if the player is on his rookie contract and after three years the rookie contract can be renegotiated. I don't see why the Jets should not keep Darnold around and work with him so they don't end up turning him loose to another team that will bring out his potential. No team is going to be looking at Darnold to be their starter but there may be some willing to bring him on as an unproven backup project - that's how his salary should be determined and that's the kind of offer the Jets should make to him between now and May. He knows he hasn't put himself in a great negotiating position.

    None of this means the team does not focus on Lawrence and Fields - competition is good and nobody should realistically expect a playoff run in 2021.
     
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  15. Falco21

    Falco21 Well-Known Member

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    Understood and we are on the same page.

    There is a lot more to a winning franchise than just the QB. Getting the franchise QB is the hardest part. Building around him follows as the next biggest challenge. Having said that, I trust Joe Douglas to make those moves and do the right thing. His first draft seems pretty good in regards to talent. Just sucks we have such a shitty coach to try and coach it.

    As for Lawrence, I am in no way of the mindset that we will "for sure" get him. Hell, this might be one of the worst times to try and get the first overall pick. The pandemic, injuries, and amount of suck ass teams throughout the league has proven that we might need to lose every fuckin game to have a shot at #1. Leave it to the Jets to have this situation right when we have the chance at a guy like Lawrence.

    There is a HUGE unknown regarding Lawrence in the NFL. Some of the best college QB's in college have turned into massive busts in the NFL. My opinion is far different for Lawrence. I truly believe he will be a great QB in the NFL. He has all the talent and attributes to be one. Time will tell.
     
  16. James Hasty

    James Hasty Well-Known Member

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    The Ravens have been consistently good for quite a while.

    Joe Flacco's Ravens were consistently in the hunt but I would not call him one of the greats in he league (especially now).
     
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  17. Falco21

    Falco21 Well-Known Member

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    Again, there are exceptions to the rule. Flacco was not one of the greats in the league, but he was very good. His years in Baltimore had ups and downs, and it showed in their seasons throughout those years.
     
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  18. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    The Ravens are a huge anomaly in this league. They're the only franchise in the past 25 years that has really consistently changed quarterbacks and maintained competitive. From Dilfer to Grbac, to Redman/Blake and off to Boller and briefly McNair (RIP) then to Flacco and now Lamar Jackson. It's amazing the sustained success.

    Including this year they'll have made the playoffs 13/20 years and won two Super Bowls with all of the different quarterbacks and styles. It's so unlike the rest of the league that you pretty much can't emulate it.

    Some teams have transitioned away from different quarterbacks and refound success (49ers, Seahawks, Titans, Chiefs), but none of those situations were without some bad years and growing pains in between. And the only team to hit paydirt is the Seahawks after they found their FQB.
     
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  19. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    Of course coaching matters too but his main point is that the common denominator is a great QB. It's by far the most important single thing an organization can have given how the rules have shifted to favor offense and specifically passing offense. Followed in importance by a great coach/GM.
     
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  20. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

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    On the Chiefs example, yeah they have been competitive, but last time they won SB before Mahomes did last year was in 60s, year after the Jets. So, it is quite clear, while there is a small chance you can win with just a decent QB, to be a real SB competitor you need a great Multiple Pro Bowl type QB, and then of course you have to build a good team around him.
     
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