RIP Walt Michaels

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by mrjet80, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the second paragraph but not with the first - not at all. The teams were pretty evenly matched but I feel the Jets were slightly more rounded.

    The Jets outplayed Miami in the Dec game and should have won. That would have reversed the records and the Jets would have played them at home at some point in the playoffs. Then it’s a different story.

    Todd was better than Woodley, they had the NFLs leading rusher, and the Jets pass rush was better. I know the Dolphins whipped them opening day but opening day has always been bizarre with bewildering results due to some players not quite being in 100% game shape coming off the preseason and not playing whole games.

    But even if the game was still in Miami under normal circumstances I’m pretty sure the Jets would take them.
     
  2. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

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    this has been one of my favorite recent threads. thank you guys for sharing your memories.
     
  3. The Waterboy

    The Waterboy Well-Known Member

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  4. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    The Dolphins had the No. 1 D in the league in 82. Todd was never better than Woodley. Miami and the Jets both had a nice run between 81 and 86. The Dolphins cumulative record was much better. They had better D's, more effective coaching and during that period went to two SB. They produced 56 wins to our 41 wins. In the second game we played they had more rushing yards, more passing yards more net yards and never trailed in the second half. They beat us 3 times in that one season. FYI in 82 the Jets D produced 20 sacks, the Dolphins produced 29 sacks in that 9 game season. They had a much better D and pass rush it wasn't close. We clearly had a better O that year. In 82 the rules weren't designed to handicap the D. Good D's shut down good O's. Miami had the best D in the league that year.

    The reason we all believed was Todd had that great moment against the Raider and we thought he had finally busted out. The reality is the Raiders that year had one of the worst pass D's in the league.
     
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  5. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    Todd was better than Woodley. Todd wasn’t better than a lot of QBs but Woodley yes.

    If you’re talking about a five year period that changes things as the Jets got older and more brittle during the 85-86 period. The difference was more in the coaching. There was a drop off between the Shula coached Dolphins and the Walton coached Jets. Better discipline, less penalties.....but Shula had Marino from 83-86.

    But sticking to the 1982 season nothing will convince me that the Jets weren’t slightly better talent wise than the Dolphins. Apparently even Shula thought so which is what prompted him to cheat the system and not have the field covered in the first place.

    Some people feel the Jets would have given the Redskins a better game perhaps even have beaten them. I’m not sure about that.

    The unfortunate thing is there is no way to know what would of happened if things were done right.
     
  6. papapump

    papapump Active Member

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    If you recall the rains came dream on.just prior to game day. As far as the NFL doing anything,
     
  7. papapump

    papapump Active Member

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    Wow, that came out wrong. In a nutshell good luck with the NFL doing anything.
     
  8. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    In no universe was Todd better than Woodley. They were both second tier starters. Todd had moments where he was better than Woodley but he also had games where he was terrible. Look at both of their playoff records. Todd had 4 games to Woodley's 5. Woodley didn't win or lose games. Todd did both.

    As far as better. If you lose to the same team 3 times in the same year you're only better if you believe football is all luck.

    You have to separate the 1 shinning moment against a terrible pass defense where Todd actually did his job and his collective work. You have to separate the fact that the Dolphins allowed the field to be a mud puddle to get an edge and the fact that they actually beat us twice that year and fielded better teams with better coaching who where better than us that year and through the period surrounding that year.
     
    #108 Biggs, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  9. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    I watched an interview with Richard Todd some years ago, it was well after his playing days, so maybe it was in the 90s or something. In the interview, Todd seemed bitter or apathetic about his playing career.

    The interviewer noted that he goes into retired players' homes all the time and sees all kinds of jerseys, pictures, footballs, and other memorabilia players like to keep to remember their playing days. But the ONLY thing Todd had in his entire house that would indicate he once played in the NFL was a photo of him leaving the field and Jets fans pelting him with snowballs. LOL
     
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  10. statjeff22

    statjeff22 2008 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award Winner

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    Obviously Todd felt the weight of being the Alabama heir to Joe Willie, and I guess he deserves some sympathy for that, but the fact is that he was a below-average quarterback for most of his career who hurt the team far more than he helped it. That he is most known for one of the worst playoff performances in NFL history and shoving a reporter into a locker tells you all you have to know. His ceiling was game manager (which he achieved in 1981-1982, when he was about at the level of a Griese or Tannehill), but unfortunately he was quite bad otherwise. He also came off as a jerk most of the time.
     
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  11. GREG

    GREG Well-Known Member

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    The one play that I will always remember Todd for was the INT at the goal line in the final seconds against the Bills in 81 WC loss. Shea was ready to explode as Todd led a furious rally from 24-0 down only to have it killed on that one play.
     
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  12. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    That game was a turnover fest by both teams. At one point Ferguson threw 4 consecutive INT's. Todd threw 4 INT's and we also lost two fumbles. We had our chances despite the awful start. Walker dropped a sure TD early in that game that really hurt.
     
  13. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    You’re entitled
    You’re entitled to your opinion but Woodley was an average/below average QB and was not better than Todd. He lasted what 3 or 4 years? The Dolphins drafted Marino in 1983 and lucky for them they were able to insert him as the starting QB right when Woodley fell on his face for good. Don’t forget Woodley was benched several times and had the good fortune of having Don Strock available to bail him out. In fact it was Strock who drove the Dolphins to the game winning FG in that Dec game. ( He got a break when Bobby Jackson dropped an INT ). Woodley was just as bad as Todd in the playoff game I can’t remember if it was 3 or 4 INTs he threw but again he had the luxury of bad calls from the refs to bail him out . The Dolphins won all those games in spite of Woodley.

    I’m not saying Todd was great shakes. He turned out to be a major disappointment .

    I’m surprised other posters aren’t chiming in on this. I’d like to hear other opinions about this....
     
  14. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Woodley wasn't a good QB. That's not my argument. He was at best a total game manager. He had a great winning percentage. Todd was a terrible game manager. He had much better skill position players around him and was a total bust QB with a few boom moments. We aren't comparing Dan Marino to Payton Manning. We are comparing a nice second string QB who could manage games to a horrible starting QB who couldn't manage games despite great talent around him.

    David Woodley in 58 starts had a career 34 18 and 1 record. I attribute that to his coaches who did a brilliant job getting him to manage games.
    Richard Todd in 108 game starts, with lots of good talent around him had an abysmal 48 59 and 1 record. The period that Todd was the starting QB the Jets had excellent skill position players along with a solid OL. Woodley played on great Defensive teams that managed the ball.

    No question Woodley wasn't a good starting QB. That's not the argument. Woodley stacks up very nicely against Todd because Todd basically sucked. He lead the league in pick 6's twice.

    Todds best two moments on the Jets was the Oakland TD and trying to stuff Serby in a locker.
     
    #114 Biggs, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  15. joe

    joe Well-Known Member

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    Here's all anyone needs to know about Woodley and Todd as QBs: Woodley was a better WR. QBs are eligible when operating out of the shotgun - Tony Nathan threw a TD to Woodley in a blowout win over the Jets on opening day at Shea. Jets had the better skill position players, Miami had a considerably better OL and overall a much more balanced (Killer B's) defense (the Sack Exchange notwithstanding). Jets were top 5 in offense, Miami was top 5 in rushing offense and bottom of the barrel in passing offense (Jimmy Cefalo, Duriel Harris)....next year = Dan Marino and whatever Woodley-Todd argument there was became moot.

    .
     
  16. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    i think a major difference that needs to be noted here is the dolphin approach to their QB position in 81/82 was WAY better than the jets approach. shula put woodley and strock in friendly game plans, perfect play calls, and of course had a great D to fall back on......the fish did not have better talent on offense but that didn't matter - in fact the jets probably did. but shula took care of his QB's AND had his stellar defense.

    remember all the misdirections and screens shula would call for t. nathan to counteract gastineau. LOL.

    in hindsight, that was a great place for marino to go - despite some of the idiot opinions after shula picked him.
     
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  17. joe

    joe Well-Known Member

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    She don't lie,
    she don't lie,
    she don't lie....
    Marino.



    But of course the Jets couldn't believe their lying eyes watching Marino with his Namath-like release (JWN had a better backpedal) toss that game-winner vs. Georgia in the Sugar Bowl.
    .
    .
     
    #117 joe, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  18. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    My first Jets heartbreak ....
     
  19. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    Yes somewhere a few posts back I said coaching was a major difference . Nothing against Michaels. But he was a defensive guy and he basically handed the offensive reigns to Walton. Who would you take as a game manager Walton or Shula?

    Todd was kinda fragile mentally - he had all the tools hence his draft status. He hit his ceiling in 1982 and then the mud bowl finished him off basically.
     
  20. mrjet80

    mrjet80 Well-Known Member

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    Now that you put it this way it makes more sense what you’re saying. Yes Woodley’s ceiling was probably a decent back up. And yes Todd who had all the talent in the world sucked as a starter overall.

    Yes good moments - but don’t forget the 16-15 game. That game stands out as to his leadership skills despite a painful injury.
     

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