Religion - a respectful discussion, for those interested

Discussion in 'BS Forum' started by Truth4U2, May 2, 2015.

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  1. TommyJ

    TommyJ Well-Known Member

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    they were just merely a bunch of horrible desert dwelling savages with a narrow and barbaric moral code who were simply
    very uncomfortable with themselves. The Word of God? that's a laugher.
     
  2. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    Spirituality, religion, and health: An emerging research field.
    Miller, William R.; Thoresen, Carl E.
    American Psychologist, Vol 58(1), Jan 2003, 24-35.

    The investigation of spiritual/religious factors in health is clearly warranted and clinically relevant. This special section explores the persistent predictive relationship between religious variables and health, and its implications for future research and practice. The section reviews epidemiological evidence linking religiousness to morbidity and mortality, possible biological pathways linking spirituality/religiousness to health, and advances in the assessment of spiritual/religious variables in research and practice. This introduction provides an overview of this field of research and addresses 3 related methodological issues: definitions of terms, approaches to statistical control, and criteria used to judge the level of supporting evidence for specific hypotheses. The study of spirituality and health is a true frontier for psychology and one with high public interest. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)
    http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/58/1/24/
     
  3. The Waterboy

    The Waterboy Well-Known Member

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    What is the basic purpose of religion? Religion is designed to focus the people's attention and energy on a single, unchanging, uncompromising and invisible supreme being who allegedly created an inferior human race just for some extra companionship and love for himself and then supposedly foisted a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules on them, which if broken would be met with unimaginable punishment.

    This keeps the followers in a continuing state of fear and compliance.

    They are afraid to question the intentions of this invisible being and they are afraid of even expressing their own individuality in many cases. Christians and others are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except pray, worship and do good deeds.

    They are taught to practice self denial and are told that their own will is totally irrelevant. Religious followers believe that they are yielding their will over to a benevolent cosmic individual who has single-handedly created the whole universe and has their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of religious elites for the elites own personal gains.

    It appears that religion must constantly degrade and humiliate its followers in order to glorify and elevate its god. Unfortunately many people appear eager to give away their power to authority and seem to have a need and even a desire to be ruled and disciplined by it.

    Worshipping gods is futile and is nothing more than an ancient primitive custom practiced by weak minded and superstitious people. It has no place in the 21st century. The reason we have life in this world is to experience life in this world, not to spend our entire lives studying an old book, looking up to the sky and worshipping an invisible ruler in another realm.

    The main method by which Christians in particular are trapped and deceived is with the messiah or saviour story. This is linked to the 'original sin' story which is designed to impose a large amount of guilt onto the whole of humanity. The believers are then so grateful that they have been saved by the son of God nearly 2000 years before they were born that in some cases they abandon all reason, logic and good judgment to obey and worship this god and his son.

    Anyone who believes this story is indeed lost because to believe that a god would send his only son to help us, only to see his son get tortured and murdered, and then instead of unleashing all his wrath, simply absolve us from all crimes past and present, is pure madness to say the least.


    Where is the lesson for us in that? What has been achieved? There is no lesson or purpose because it's all about mass psychological enslavement and disempowerment.
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm
     
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  4. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I could list all of the stupid things science once believed, before they continually corrected themselves using the scientific method, and use that to attack science. .... leeches to suck the blood from people to try to cure disease? sawing off someone's leg, 5 big guys holding him down while the poor victim writhed in pain, only to die later from infection? .... etc etc etc .... That's exactly what you are trying to do, and what others who attack religion always do, go back to the mistakes people made in history and condemn modern religion for it. They also sometimes confuse the corrupt or misguided practices of certain religious leaders, or individuals, with what the religion actually teaches.

    As for Catholicism, try actually reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I challenge you to find anything wrong with what the Church actually teaches (few actually read it, it's long, they just go by the misguided comments of individuals they hear, word of mouth...there are so many misconceptions about the Church it's really sad. Many more people could benefit greatly from Catholicism in their lives, not to mention communities, if they actually understood what the Church really teaches.)
     
    #2824 Truth4U2, Jun 4, 2016
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  5. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    There's too much emotional nonsense in this to be worth disputing it all. But what stands out most is the claim that the "reason" for life is to experience life.

    Really? Whose authority has determined that is the reason? What if there is no reason at all and the experience is simply a by product of life existing and not the reason?

    This is an opinion piece about the author's desire to express his authority on the matter, not an honest intellectual analysis of religion.
     
    #2825 JetBlue, Jun 4, 2016
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  6. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    #2826 Truth4U2, Jun 4, 2016
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  7. The Waterboy

    The Waterboy Well-Known Member

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    TLDR

    Hell, I barely read what I posted.
     
  8. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    An honest discussion of religion certainly includes the option that the idea of God is simply in our heads. But the honest discussion of that option would require approaching from the same evolutionary psychological perspective as any of our other psychological behaviors.

    Once you accept that honest approach it forces the advocate to accept that there was some evolutionary benefit and isn't simply the fears and insecurity of stupid people. To simply approach it with criticism and addressing the negative ways religion has been used is dishonest.
     
  9. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ JetBlue, based on what you just posted, I think you will find this article interesting. I saw this guy on CNN recently talking about his new book "“Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging”. It's not about religion at all, but the point he makes about the holes in our modern society seem to dovetail with what organized religion used to provide in our country (ie. shared values/ideals, community, etc) until the 60's ushered in a new era of extreme individualism, relativism, and secularism.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/b...-brothers-returning-to-a-divided-country.html

    Some interesting excerpts from this NY Times book review article:

    "Mr. Junger’s premise is simple: Modern civilization may be swell, giving us unimaginable autonomy and material bounty. But it has also deprived us of the psychologically invaluable sense of community and interdependence that we hominids enjoyed for millions of years. It is only during moments of great adversity that we come together and enjoy that kind of fellowship — which may explain why, paradoxically, we thrive during those moments. (In the six months after Sept. 11, Mr. Junger writes, the murder rate in New York dropped by 40 percent, and the suicide rate by 20 percent.)

    War, too, for all of its brutality and ugliness, satisfies some of our deepest evolutionary yearnings for connectedness. Platoons are like tribes. They give soldiers a chance to demonstrate their valor and loyalty, to work cooperatively, to show utter selflessness. Is it any wonder that so many of them say they miss the action when they come home?

    As a former anthropology major, Mr. Junger takes a special interest in tribal life. He notes that a striking number of American colonists ran off to join Native American societies, but the reverse was almost never true. He describes the structure and values of hunter-gatherer groups, including the ones that lasted well into the 20th century, like the !Kung in the Kalahari."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/b...-brothers-returning-to-a-divided-country.html
     
    #2829 Truth4U2, Jun 4, 2016
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  10. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    LOL! :D

    Sorry for that avalanche buddy, I'll try to give you the "cliff notes" version ...

    -- "a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules" [A prescription for healthy living, both physically and psychologically]

    -- "which if broken would be met with unimaginable punishment" [God never punishes us, any more than a doctor "punishes" us with disease when we don't follow his advice or take our meds]

    [the more closely you live in a healthy way by following your human nature, which religion promotes by those supposedly "oppressive" rules, the more joyful you are. This is evident from the joy and peace in the eyes of devout followers, and what attracts countless people generation after generation even in our modern age of skepticism and extreme relativism]

    -- "Christians and others are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except pray, worship and do good deeds." [this is completely untrue; we are taught how to live true freedom, so that we don't fall into harmful addictions that enslave us; we are taught mastery over our bodies and minds, so that we can freely choose how to spend our time, and not be slaves to physical urges or other compulsive addictive behaviors; we can enjoy endless healthy fun and fulfillment, only avoiding a tiny percentage of harmful activities that hurt us physically and psychologically and lead to addictions. And btw, it's well-known that doing good deeds makes you feel good, and gives a deep satisfaction that helps you sleep peacefully at night]

    [self-denial is how we strengthen our will, by being able to deny a physical craving, even small things for example a piece of cake, we gain control over our will that helps us direct our lives more freely]

    -- "Religious followers believe that they are yielding their will over to a benevolent cosmic individual" [again God gives us free will, which is what leads to the evil acts that some individuals choose and that leads to the suffering in the world that some people blame God for] who has single-handedly created the whole universe and has their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of religious elites for the elites own personal gains [everything these "elites" say and do is in service of the doctrines of their Faith, at least for Catholicism and the other major world religions; all believers have access to what these religions teach, it's completely transparent, so even if these "elites" did want to try to change things to control people, they could not get away with it]

    -- "Worshipping gods is futile and is nothing more than an ancient primitive custom practiced by weak minded and superstitious people." [and yet millions of people today, in our modern world with practically unlimited access to information and education, still follow religion. And this includes a large number of the world's most respected and accomplished scientists] It has no place in the 21st century. The reason we have life in this world is to experience life in this world, not to spend our entire lives studying an old book, looking up to the sky and worshipping an invisible ruler in another realm. [but where did this life come from? where did anything come from? According to science, matter and energy are never created or destroyed, they just change form....so if nothing is ever created, then how did all of this get here? THAT'S "magic" if you believe that the physical universe is all there is. Because apart from a supernatural/metaphysical explanation, the natural/physical world cannot explain its own existence! You want a scientific proof for God's existence, there it is!]

    -- "The main method by which Christians in particular are trapped and deceived is with the messiah or saviour story." [Jesus' life and miracles were witnessed by hundreds of real people, many of whom were Jews, and passed on the way all information was passed on at that time, and then recorded in a reference work of many authors that we call the Bible]. This is linked to the 'original sin' story which is designed to impose a large amount of guilt onto the whole of humanity. [like the "guilt" doctors impose on their patients when they tell them that eating junk food, watching too much TV, etc, is bad for them? Taking away their "freedom" and imposing "guilt"....again, even modern science today shows how the disciplines people freely adopt for themselves when they choose to follow religion are healthy and beneficial, see the scholarly article from the APA (psychology) which I posted earlier.]

    ... sorry this got almost as long, but hopefully in more digestible chunks? ;)








     
  11. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

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    It's all about the science.

    _
     
  12. ChrebetCrunch

    ChrebetCrunch Well-Known Member

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    I'm all about that science, bout that science, no religion.
     
  13. The Waterboy

    The Waterboy Well-Known Member

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    Still TL Still DR
     
  14. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Your list would only serve to disprove your theories and have you looking in the mirror for the stupid things some believe. Leeches are still being used effectively in modern medicine. Amputations continue to save lives and do so with much less pain and risk of infection as in the past because medicine continues to test and change its methods. You need to tell us why organized religions are so loathe to test or change their methods before you tell us to follow an invisible path to an invisible entity.
     
  15. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

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    They do change their practices. Sinners are now welcomed and embraced, not stoned; the Church no longer sells indulgences or Sacraments, seminaries have tightened up "security" greatly with strict background checks, psych. evaluations, extensive lengthy application processes, etc, to make sure child molesters or those with psychological issues don't end up becoming Priests; the Church now has a much better understanding of how its teachings complement, rather than oppose, science, in large part due to the significant number of modern scientists who are also religious. They explain how the more they learn about science, the more it strengthens their faith...this is particularly true when it comes to the latest in Physics (Quantum Mechanics, Astrophysics....I've read a lot on these fields myself, and while not a professional scientist per se I do have a strong science background). In fact, if you study world religion, you will see that Catholicism represents the culmination of religious history, just as our modern science represents the culmination of all that came before it. Religion has the advantage of being inspired by God and furthered through divine revelation at times, while science relies exclusively on human study of the physical environment, but as I alluded to before science is starting to catch up to religion; again, that's why more and more modern scientists are finding that latest advances in Physics and other areas actually help to confirm their religious beliefs. If you don't believe this you can research it yourself online, and there are also plenty of good books written by religious scientists, including "The Language of God" by Dr. Francis Collins, director of the human genome project. ... Another good one I read: "The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth" by Dr. Gerald Schroeder, Israeli Physicist. ... and "The Mind Of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World" by Physicist Paul Davies. ... a quick Amazon search reminded me of these great books I read, and lists many others like it.
     
    #2835 Truth4U2, Jun 5, 2016
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  16. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

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    It's all about the science.

    _
     
  17. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Richard Dawkins has argued that humans have evolved with an affinity for religion because of an evolutionary need for obedience, especially in children. Basically over the years adaptation favored the ones who obeyed commands like "don't swim over there where the crocodiles are." Those more apt to obey with commands like that were more likely to survive but also were also more apt to obey with made up religious commands...

    not my argument, Dawkins', but to me it is quite interesting..
     
  18. RuJFan

    RuJFan Well-Known Member

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    This is actually a very interesting point.

    To take it further...
    Inevitably there would be those who don't follow the "no crocodile" directive. Most of them never get out of the childhood, but those lucky enough to grow up would be different. Some of those would be smart enough to recognize the advantage they possess.

    They are the one-eyed men in the land of the blind. People who realize that any word said in the right way will be accepted as gospel :)
    "Born leaders" we'd call them -- Attilla, Genghus Khan, Ceasar, Lenin....

    Pertinent to the topic - early church leader. It all amounts to the same thing: make your pitch in a right way and masses will believe and do whatever you please.
     
  19. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Voodoo theologics.
     
  20. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

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    It actually makes perfect sense if you have a scientific background.

    _
     
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