First of all, the Bible is not a science book, as others have pointed out. Creationists and fundamentalists who try to claim that the Bible's account of creation in Genesis is a literal scientific explanation are misguided. The Bible uses metaphors, analogies, and figurative language to explain reality. It was inspired by God, and is a brilliant way to teach those without a scientific background the essence of how God created the universe, but it is certainly not scientific. However, the Bible has been shown to be historically accurate; none of the events of the Bible, at least, have been disproven by historians. It is generally believed that the Bible is a fairly accurate account of historical events. The Bible was written, in large part, as a collection of knowledge about the history of the world as passed down by oral tradition, or word of mouth. Some will try to dismiss this using the "telephone game" example, and say that the more people pass along knowledge from person to person, the more is "lost in translation", so to speak. But that childhood game always involved a single chain of people; oral tradition, on the other hand, is more like an interconnected web than a single chain. Any major historical event will have many witnesses, and those many witnesses will each tell many other people, and those accounts will be checked and corroborated among many people.....it's much more likely that these major events (like 9/11 in our lifetimes, for example) will be passed on fairly accurately from generation to generation. The Bible is the best selling book of all time, and has been studied by more scholars, historians, and educated people than any other history book. It has stood the test of time, and it's authenticity has been confirmed. It's true that there is still a lot that science does not know.....but with each passing generation, and the development of more and more sophisticated equipment, today's discoveries are smaller advances than those of the past. In our lifetimes, what has been the biggest scientific advancement? Do we have anything that can compare to electricity, or penicillin, or the microscope, or the computer? All of the major physical laws of the universe have been known for some time now. The latest Physics, namely Quantum Mechanics and String Theory, only seem to provide evidence for the workings of a Supernatural power lying outside what science is capable of studying. For example, Physics now believes that there are tiny, random events that happen at the subatomic level. How can truly "random" events be explained by scientific principles. After all, science operates under the assumption that all matter, energy, and events can be explained logically by a set of laws, or equations, that are predictable and repeatable. But truly random events are neither; they can't be explained by science. Could this be the discovery of how God works His miracles from time to time, or how God's Providence acts in the world? We now know that matter and energy are interchangable (from Einstein's T.O.R.), and that the universe is 99% empty space; actual physical matter is something like 1% of objects we always used to think were "solid, material objects". Energy predominates in the universe, along with forces like gravity (which scientists can still only describe the effects of; they cannot explain what gravity actually is). Could gravity be a spiritual force, something like God's "love" binding the universe together, causing things to be attracted to each other? Analogous to how people feel an attraction of love to other people? I know this sounds like a real stretch, but is it? With all their sophisticated equipment, and knowledge, scientists still cannot detect gravity, other than to observe and measure the effects of it. And they still have no idea what it actually is. The "substance" of gravity, so to speak. If it were energy, it should able to be detected with equipment like heat or other forms of energy. If it was made up of matter, again it should be detectable. ..... does that leave only the Spiritual, Supernatural as a possibility? ....also, it seems that energy is closer to the spiritual than it is to the physical.
One of the most admirable qualities of Jews and Catholics is they are generally not very prone evangelism. I really hope that general characteristic isn't changing.
I'm not sure I understand your question, but it sounds like a good one. I'll give it a shot...let me know if I'm not understanding you here... You asked "How does science dial that down into the God of the New Testament"? First, I would say that there is only one God, whether you're talking about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other religion. All of the major world religions reveal some aspects of the one true God. Catholics believe that they alone have the fullness of Truth as revealed by God Himself in His latest revelation, Jesus Christ. But God is God, and we don't discount any religion. They all have things to contribute to our understanding of the Divine Creator and Lord of the Universe. God has revealed Himself in different ways throughout the history of the world. There was Moses and the burning bush, the 10 commandments (which didn't work too well), Noah and the flood (God wipes out humanity and "starts over", that didn't work either, finally He decided to take human form and come into the world Himself in the ultimate "rescue mission" for humanity, so to speak. He loves His children, all of us, but we continue to go astray, so in order to teach us more directly he came as one of us, fully human and fully divine at the same time. The "God Man" as Jesus has been described. He demonstrated His divinity through numerous miracles witnessed by hundreds of people. He taught us many lessons, recorded in the New Testament. He appointed Peter the head of His Church on earth, the "Rock upon whom I build my Church". Peter was the first Pope, the first head of Christ's Catholic Church. His 12 Apostles were the first Priests, and he gave them certain Spiritual graces and powers. "Receive the Holy Spirit....whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained" (the Sacrament of Reconciliation). He gave them the power to heal people spiritually in His name (The sacrament of Annointing of the Sick). He instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper ("This is my body and this is my blood....unless you eat of the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life within you). ........ all of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church were started by Jesus Christ Himself, and Christ showed us that He was truly the Son of God, truly God in human form. Nobody questioned any of this for the first 1000 years of Christianity, when all Christians were Catholics. The Protestant Reformation came much later, and was mostly a response to abuses by some in power in the church, and even the selfish desire of one King to divorce his wife and marry his lover in an adulterous affair. Of course, none of these are scientific proofs of God's existence. They could be called "historical proofs", but that depends of whether or not you think the accounts in the Bible and other historical records from that time period are accurate. I would say that the fact that there have been so many martyrs throughout history, and the Catholic Church has survived persecution and repeated attempts by world powers to snuff it out....to me that itself is a miracle and strong evidence, if not outright proof, of its authenticity. And that's what it comes down to, there will never be scientific proof of God's existence for the simple fact that science can only study the natural, physical universe, and God lies in another dimension, if you will, what we call the supernatural, or the spiritual. But there has been so much direct and indirect evidence that has accumulated through the ages, that to me, where there's been so much undeniable smoke, there must be a fire somewhere. Not to mention my personal experiences that have convinced me that God exists. And the experiences of so many other people I know, all of the near death experiences that have been reported, all of the more recent miracles that have been reported, etc....
RALEBIRD AND DIERKING! atta way boys! bingo!! im 50 years old, ive weathered plenty of storms, lost 16 friends, an older brother, my dad, financial disarray, watching friends get really sick, it's all simply made me incredibly grateful to have had the time ive had with any of my friends or family. the only currency you're going to ever be able to bring with you if there is another place after this life, is if you were cool to people along the way. i think the universe may have a look at that if it even matters at all. i love not knowing whats gonna happen. makes things really interesting for me. knowing whats gonna happen sucks, and if heaven is just a replay of this planet with all of your relatives and friends for eternity, well that sounds fuckin' boring to me, im looking and hoping for something different. turn me into some lightning, or some wind to help some poor sailors home or something cool like that. thats just me though.
You've got it backwards. God is entirely self-sufficient. He sent his only Son into the world to die on the cross for every person in the world, many of which He already knew would reject Him afterwards. He is entirely secure in who He is and will continue to exist forever whether we accept Him or reject Him. We are the ones who desperately need Him and are ultimately life-altered by the decision, not Him. He is worthy of any and all worship we can possibly offer. Certainly more worthy than the god of self and other "gods" people worship on a daily basis without realizing it. Of course God loves us and wants us to be made right with Him. But the choice is ours. He doesn't force himself on anybody. God doesn't need anything from you or anybody else. Nobody has ever given Him anything that He should be dependent on anybody. It is you and I who are dependent on Him for our very existence, even the very breath that we have at this moment.
I am not talking about religion. I am talking about life and death. Your heroes are dead. Jesus is alive. If you actually believe what you are saying when you declare that God doesn't exist: You can "optimize" (whatever that means) this life all you want. By your own logic, you are going to be food for worms, and that's it. If God does not exist, there can be no argument for any sort of morality. If God does not exist, you cannot argue against rapists or serial killers because there is no authority in this universe. Everyone's views are then on equal footing, and it is your law against mine. If God doesn't exist, you are nothing more than a worthless clump of dirt. If you have kids or parents or brothers or sisters, they are also nothing more than a "random" worthless clump of dirt. As with most "atheists" and agnostics, your stated "intellectual" objections are most likely merely a cover for your true objections, which are one or more of the following: 1) You are unwilling to acknowledge your sin 2) You are ashamed of your sin, and afraid God will never forgive you 3) You are trapped in some sin or addiction, and feel hopeless 4) You want to continue to be your own "god" and do as you please 5) You are foolish enough to believe that you will never be accountable for your life / actions 6) You have never experienced love in your life and deep down maybe feel unworthy / unlovable 7) You've hardened your heart so often that it feels like nothing can get through, so it's just easier to drown yourself in whatever the world has to offer you, which isn't much It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus of Nazareth lived. Now when you say "supposedly" existed, you lose all credibility. Reasonable men can disbelieve on whether He is who He says He is. But that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and was crucified is a historical fact. George Carlin doesn't care whether you live or die. You are a fool if you follow him. The sort of atheist you are mocks Christians for being "foolish" and for following what is "just the words of man" (in your estimation), yet you are willing to stake your eternal fate on the words of pompous, weak little men like Dawkins and Carlin. You mock Christians for being arrogant and for acting as if they know everything and you bust out with ridiculous statements like "you are entitled to believe in a man who lived over..." Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody needs your permission to believe whatever they want to believe. We have Jesus' words and his life to compare to any other man's who has ever written or spoken something on this earth. If you want to choose the words of a feeble hunchbacked comic over the one who lived a perfect life and loved you enough to die for you -- yes, you!! -- and then rose from the dead, that's on you. I've been to a few funerals in my life. And I've never talked to anybody at one who didn't think there was something after death. If you want to do anything in life, it makes sense to learn from one who has done it before. If you want to find real life and to conquer death, there is only one man to go to. It is Jesus. He is ready to receive us, forgive us, and start over with us. But we have to be willing to acknowledge that we need him and to turn to him. If you want to learn how to be bitter, arrogant and hopeless (and peddle that to other people so that they too can feel more hopeless than they already feel), follow Dawkins and Carlin.
So your idea that isn't "nonsense" is that Giselle Bundchen looking how she does is some random byproduct of some mysterious evolutionary process where over the last billion or so years amphibians morph into supermodels??
Wow! "Worthless clumps of dirt." No morality without god? How about morality based on humanity? How about treating each other decently simply because it is right and just? Why do you need a puppeteer to pull the right strings? You sound like a jihadi with his god pulling his strings. How's that working out?
quick question here, why did god need a son anyway? and why did he have to send him to the most illiterate part of the world to die a barbaric death to try and get a message across to people?
1st question: Probably because there are people who would call it fairy tales and fantasy unless an actual human being reflected God on Earth. 2nd question: Probably because there are people who would call it fairy tales and fantasy unless an actual human being reflected God on Earth with human struggles.
The way they explained it to me in catechism is like this. It's Christmas eve and a guy is at home while his wife goes to midnight mass. He's not a believer. He looks out his back window in the midst of a howling blizzard and notices a big family of birds getting blown around back there. He takes pity on them and want to get them into his barn, where there will be shelter. So he goes out into the blizzard, opens the barn door and tries to show them into the barn. But they are birds, they are frightened and cold, there are a lot of them, and they are getting blown all about his yard. So after about an hour of futility in getting them into the barn, he thinks to himself, "If only I was a bird, there would be a much better likelihood that I could lead them into safety." Then the church bells ring out and he gets why his wife goes to church every sunday. So, yeah, kinda like Nagle said, fairy tales.
sounds to me like the story has more holes in it than the Jets D. thats just me though. believe what you wish, whatever twirls your beanie right? just be cool to your fellows, thats all i got.
As someone else pointed out earlier, God doesn't need anything, certainly not from any of his creatures (including us....yeah I know it may be tough for some 21st century folks to comprehend, but we are not gods, despite the media trying to convince us that we don't need anyone or anything, that we can do it our way). God is all about Love, Mercy, and Justice. The answer lies in God reconciling His Love and Mercy with His Justice. God wants to save us from our sins (save us from ourselves really, our own tendency towards self-destructive behavior that we inherited from Adam and Eve's original sin). But we must be held accountable for our sins, as a requirement of Justice. Mankind had sinned so gravely, turning its collective backs on God, despite Moses' best efforts, and Noah starting over after the flood. So in the ultimate act of Love for us, Jesus sent His only Son (coming into the world as one of us) not only to teach us, but to pay the price for our sins. The agony of the crucifixion was God Himself taking the punishment for our sins, all of our sins, satisfying the requirement of Justice in order to pave the way for our salvation. All we need to do is show Love and gratitude towards God for his saving act, before we even deserved it btw....he saved us from our sins before we repented of them, and he just asks that we try our best to avoid sin in the future, helping ourselves to find peace, happiness, and joy in this life, and continuing to the next. So it's ALL about God being the perfect father to us, teaching us, forgiving us, taking the "bullet" of our sins for us, and just asking for our love in return. And we love him ultimately by loving one another, since he loves all of us and sends his Spirit to become a part of us. God, the Divine, humbles himself to come as a man, so that we might follow him and ultimately become "divine" like him in Heaven one day.
so we're born sick, flawed , and full of sin, and demanded to be well upon threat of eternal torture and pain in hell. great. sorry , im looking for something better than that. im gonna bow out of here, interesting thread though seeing the various replies. i digress, whatever twirls your beanie, go for it.
yes, that's catholicism in a nutshell.... there are other denominations that may suit you better, not all Christian churches serve you a glass of guilt at every service, just in case you were wondering
No, that's not it at all ..... let me try to explain. If you have kids, you might understand this analogy. We all want the best for our kids, but sometimes that means limiting their choices in the short-term. We may tell them that they can't have that extra dessert, or that they can't go out into the streets by themselves, or that they can't play with matches....young children don't understand the dangers inherent in all of these activities. They may tell us "mom, dad, you make all these stupid rules, and then threaten to ground me if I don't obey you. But the rules we make for our kids are for their own good, and they will lead to happiness and a good life down the road. Same with God's rules for us. The 10 commandments are like a "user's manual for human beings", if we follow the advice in this "manuel" we will have a long life, avoid costly "repairs" and "malfunctions" down the road....etc. The Catholic Church is the greatest source of peace, happiness, and joy if only we would embrace it fully, and do our best to follow the advice of God our Father. He created us, He knows what's best for us. The sacrament of reconciliation is a great gift of the Church, and it frees us from guilt and the negative effects of sin. The Catholic Church is the source of true freedom, and the solution for guilt, NOT the source of it! This is a common misconception of those who are not familiar with the Church. (btw, the "fire and brimstone" homilies are a thing of the past...if anything some Catholics complain that Priests nowadays seem afraid to lecture people on how they should act, or talk about sin in their homilies...apparently they have given in to this myth of "guilt" that is out there...it's mostly all optimistic, inspiring "pep talks" from Priests these days). The mass has changed a lot since Vatican II, anyone who hasn't been to Church in awhile would be pleasantly surprised by how modern the mass has become. The Eucharist is the same, of course, and the basic structure of the mass is the same, but the language and homilies by the Priests are a lot different, adapting to modern culture.
He is? You don't know what optimize means? Nonsense. Your morality is defined by who you are when you think no one is watching, not who you pretend to be in order to impress the camera in the sky. The amazing fact that we have evolved from single-celled organisms to beings with higher brains capable of pondering our own existence in this unimaginably vast universe is plenty of meaning for me. Or, it could be that I just don't think believing in God makes any fucking sense? Your ideas are good too, though. Actually, the historicity of Jesus has been called into question by many historians over the years. Having made that fact abundantly clear, it is widely believed by most historians of the time period that he probably existed. But, carry on. No shit. George Carlin doesn't care about anything because he's dead. That's kind of how it works. I don't stake "my eternal fate" (There is, of course, no evidence that there is any such thing) on the words of anyone, but rather, my beliefs are derived from logic as well as my own personal assessment of the evidence that I am aware of on the subject. Where did I state, or even imply, that you needed my permission to believe in religious fairly tales? Again, just because George and I agree wholeheartedly on the subject of religious idiocy, doesn't actually mean (you know, logically speaking) that I derived my ideas from his words. In point of fact, it is possible for two intelligent people to come to the same conclusion independently. Ok. And? OR, you could actually think for yourself for half a minute without blindly following anyone. Crazy thought, I know.
