What is interesting to note that in all but 2 of those years('72, '74) the AFL had 10 or less teams so is being top 3 in passing yds 6 times that big of deal? There wasn't alot of competition. he also was top 5 in attempts 6 times, he SHOULD be near the top in yds and TDs when he threw as much, if not more, than anyone el;se and there wasn't competition. As for INTs, why does Joe get a pass for 47 more INTs than TDs when a contemporary like Len Dawson was able to throw 56 MORE TD's than INTs? That's a difference of 103. Joe was an all-time great talent but injuries left his career incomplete. W/ SB III he's nowhere near the HOF. They were both late in the game when it was over. Vinny had no running game that day and had to pass over 50 times, it makes it easier for defenders to defend the pass when they know it's coming.
This is true. Darrien Gordon picked off both passes. Gator says Jets receivers did not touch the ball on those plays. Were bad routes run by the receivers then? I can't recall those two plays, but I do remember Testaverde getting a pass on those INTs based on receiver screw-ups.
He was actually either 1st or 2nd in passing yards in 1966, 1967, 1969, 1972, and 1974, so it wasn't just lack of competition. And Namath certainly doesn't get a pass for the INTs, since comments about him not being that great come up all the time. If he had had Dawson-like numbers on INTs with Namath-like numbers on attempts and yards, he wouldn't just be in the HOF, he'd be one of the best QBs ever. My only point was that your post implied that he was mediocre, and asked for evidence to refute that. I think that him being named to 5 Pro Bowls/All-star games, and being named all-time best AFL QB above people like Dawson (who had also won a Super Bowl by that time, had been in another, and was certainly one of the top QBs of the sixties) does that.
Cakes, aka "The Elias Sports Bureau" I really liked Vinny, he was a good leader, good teammate and represented the franchise well. He had a great 1998. But even in 1998, he always scared the sh*t out of me with the ball in his hands. Even the Monday Night Miracle -- I felt we were one throw away from losing it all. I will forever remember how well he played in the the AFC Championship. I will also remember the last game of the 2000 season. The Jets lost to the Ravens 34-20, despite racking up 524 yards to the Ravens' 142 yards of total offense. Testaverde set an NFL record for pass attempts (69) in a regulation game, threw for a career-high 481 yards, also had two TD, as well as three INT.
Statjeff-What Junc doesn't get is Namath was every bit as good as Marino except he actually won a SB.
what i remember most about 1998 was that with vinny as qb we finally had a presence that had been missing for decades. How many of us remember watching vinny throw the ball that year and remember thinking god we can't be beat..... even in the late minutes in the denver game i thought we were going to come back and win.... i can't remember the last time i felt so good about a jets team and most of it had to do with the play of #16. He made this team a contender again after years of terrible play at qb. Most people don't realize how talented vinny was coming out of college. The guy could throw the ball 88 yds in the air and ran a 4.5 40.... I point the speed out because last year people were acting if vinny had been immobile for his whole career and comparing him to bledsoe. He was slow because he was 42....lol... Too bad we got him so late in his career.
We have had this argument many times in the past. The difference is that I saw both Namath and Testaverde play. You admittedly never saw Namath, which limits your knowledge to reading stats. Namath had many good years and only faded at the end of his career when he played for a horrible Jet team. Vinny, on the other hand couldn't win a lick with the same players that Pennington took to the playoffs twice. As for 1998, as magical as it was, where would the Jets have been if the officials had correctly called Testaverde down on the one against Seattle? One of the few times that fortune shined on the Jets. As for Namath, here we go again- here is a reprint of a prior post when you raised this argument in times past. Namath played from 65-69 in the 60's. Back then, only two teams made the playoffs from the AFC - the winner of each division (except 69, when 2nd place teams were added as wildcards, but the Jets won the East anyway). In that five year span Namath was 40-22-4. And in 72 and 74 he was 14-14. In 1970 he was 1-3 before he got hurt. And in 71 he was 1-2 when he came back. So from 1965 through 1974, he was 56-41-4. Gee, that seems like a winning record to me!!!!!!!!!!! Plus he was 2-1 in postseason. Make that 56-42-4 Namath did not have a losing season until 1975, when the Jets were among the worst teams in football. 64% winning percentage translates into 10 wins a year in a 16 game schedule. Admit it - he won far more than you thought. He made the playoffs 2 of his first five seasons and probably would have made them in 70 and 71 also. The 70 and 71 Jet defenses were very good and Namath lost two years of his prime to injury. In today's format, with wild cards and multiple playoff teams, the Jets would have made the playoffs in 67 also. So by today's standards, he won 10 games a year and would have made the playoffs three year's in a row, he won a SB against incredible odds, and lost his two best years to injury AFL All Star 1965-1969 All-time AFL QB, 1969 AFL Player of the Year 1968, All AFL-NFL team NFL All Pro 1972 I guess his contemporaries thought he was pretty good. He was All-AFL 5 times and All-Pro in 1972 after the merger in the first year he was not hurt. Check out the stats and find QB's who consistently had more passing yards than Namath. Again, not many. And Namath threw for 4000 yards in a 14 game season when 3000 yards was a big year. Also, remember that contact by DBs was legal, which made a big difference. Consider this ? 1966 ? Led AFL in Attempts, Completions, Yards, First Downs Passing and Fewest Sacks 1967 ? Led AFL in Attempts, Completions, Yards (4007 ? a record that held up for 12 years and took a 16 game schedule to break ? he led the AFL in passing by 700 yards), First Downs Passing 1968 Won Super Bowl 1972 Led NFL in Yards Passing, TD Passes and Fewest Sacks 1974 2nd in AFC in Yards Passing by 51 yards. We will never agree, but you still have to take into account that you just can't compare QBs of today and their numbers with his. Think about this - remember how hard it was for teams to pass against the Pats at the end of the season in 2004? Remember how physical their DBs were against other team's WRs? Remember how Manning threw four picks against them in the playoffs. Well, in Namath's era, contact between a DB and WR was legal!!! When the bump and run was taken away and pass interference liberalized and holding rules relaxed and in the grasp came into play, and safe offenses like the WCO were developed and QBs didn't have to call their own plays because 8 guys in the booth call the game for them etc. etc. it made passing the football incredibly easier. To illustrate my point about the game being different - in 1967 Namath averaged 15.5 yards per completion. Pennington averaged 11.3 yards per completion in 2002. QBs are throwing shorter, safer passes into defenses that can't touch wide receivers. It's a big, big difference. Just looking at TD to INT ratio isn't enough to judge the man. You need to come up with more than that.
That game goes down as one of the worst in Jet history and the loss sits squarely on Vinnie's shoulders. 14-0 lead and the ball at midfield and Vinny fumbles the snap. Driving for a score at halftime and Vinny throws an out in the corner of the end zone for a TD for the Ravens. It was awful. It was typical Vinny in a big game in any season other then 98. I also remember the 5 Ints he threw in 1987 in the Fiesta Bowl National Championship game against an inferior Penn State team that just schooled him with their defense. If that wasn't an omen, I don't know what is.
I can't see how any Jet fan can appreciate the Ravens game. He threw 3 picks and fumbled and lost the ball twice eliminating us from the playoffs. Any fan that can turn that into a positive simply does not understand football. This is really directed at Mickey Shuler. Vinny is the most inconsistent QB in football history. He's been the luckiest player to have a career that has lasted so long when so much has gone wrong, especially in big games.
No, Plinko, I didn't bring up the game as a great moment in Vinny's career. Far from it. It was probably his worst moment. He played well in the playoffs the following year vs. Oakland, but like I said in the preceding paragraph of my previous post, I was always scared what would happen when the ball was in Vinny's hands. And that Baltimore game was realization of all my fears. I'm not a darksider. But that Baltimore game was more reminscent of Vinny's early days than the good moments he had with the Jets. He sh*t the proverbial bed in that one. If I remember correctly, I think the game was on Christmas Eve that year. What a gift from Vincenzo!
If we say that everything after the Seattle game played out the same way, then the Jets would have been 11-5 and still would have been the 2 seed. (The Jets lost 2 games to NFC teams. Jacksonville was 11-5 and lost once to an NFC team. Even had the Jets lost to Seattle they still held the tiebreaker over Jacksonville due to a better conference record.) It would not have changed things on the Seattle end, either. New England was 7-5 in conference games. Seattle went 5-7 and change that to 6-6 with a win over the Jets. Either way, New England was the 6th seed and Seattle stayed home and fired the coach. What someone could say is that the loss to the Jets may have deflated the Seahawks. It's not true. The Seahawks beat the Chargers and Colts in their next two games. In Week 17 they lost in Denver 28-21 and nobody won in Denver that season. At the end of the day, the Testaverde "touchdown" against Seattle only had a cosmetic change on two teams' records. It also helped lead to instant replay coming back for the 1999 season after a seven year absence.
Now here all Royal was trying to do was offset some offseason doldrums, but "Parcells Vintage Vinny" gets three freakin' pages?! It's like this: Close, but no cigar. Thanks for the memories Fat Bill and Company, but memories and a handful of pennies don't get you a ride on the subway. Next!
HAH, I couldn't remember who started that fire for sure. I see you went and threw some lighter fluid on it.
I wasn't there but seeing as he made 2 PO appearances in his career and only won 2 PO games(luckily for him and us we didn't have to win a playoff game to get to the AFL Title Game then our luck continued when oak should have hosted the game and could not) and had medioore #s tells me he wasn't great. Joe had a ton of hype around him and was a very important player off the field(moreso than on it). I don't know exactly how the voting for best AFL QB went but I'm sure Joe's personality and the attention he brought to the league helped out but on the field how could he be considered better than Dawson? dawson's #s were far superior and he had 3 AFL Titles and a SB. Talent wise I get it but production wise he doesn't belong anywhere near the same sentence as Marino. I am not saying Vinny was better than Joe- you said Vinyn was basically a 1 year wonder which isn't true as he had a few good years just as Joe had a few good years. You act like Joe was a consistently great player for a decade which is not the case. Injuries played a major role but injuries are part of the game. It'as not that I don't belive you but I'd like some proof. In '65 there were 3 other tams in the div, from '65-'69 4 other teams. it's not like he was competing w/ 10 teams for 1 spot and he only made it TWICE in his career and only needed 1 home win(a home game we didn't deserve) to get to the SB. If that game is in Oak and we lose Joe is not in the HOF today. By today's standards he would have had to lead us to 2 wins in the AFC playoffs w/ the title game being on the road. You can't use today's standards when there was only 9 teams. 40% of teams today make the playoffs, in 1967 4 teams making it(the Jets would have been 4th in a tiebreaker over SD) means 44% of teams would have made it so using today's standards back then only 3 teams would have made it one of which was NOT the NY Jets. Those incredible odds were certainly helepd by having to win only 1 game at home to get to the SB. He was a Pro Bowler in '72 not All-Pro- that's a major difference and let's looks at the "greatness" that made the Pro Bowl in the AFC: John Hadl: 2449 yds, 15 TDs, 26 INTs Daryl Lamonica: 1998 yds, 18 TDs 12 INts Namath: 2816 yds, 19 TDs 21 INts Stiff competition. I'd like to give him a pass but when a guy like Len dawson had a great TD to INT ratio and played in the same era while winning more how can I justify giving Namath a pass for all the INTs? In 1964 Dawson average almost 15 yds per completion and had 12 more TDs than INTs. You know I hate these discussion b/c I have to argue against the icon of our franchise. That fumble did change the game but we did lose by 14 and give up 2 STs TDs. I would say the Sts and Vinny share the bulk of the blame. First of, Key caught a TD the play before and was forced out- it should have been ruled a TD. Evene w/o that game though we still get the 2 seed and still make it to Denver. Play the what if game w/ '68 where we didn't deserve the AFL Title game at home.
Namath was All-Pro in 1972. In fact, he was first team All-Pro in 1972. Earl Morrall was second team All-Pro. Dawson's stats look better than Namath's stats across the board, yet just about every piece of serious football literature I've read or NFL Films segment I've seen would indicate Namath was the better player. Dawson took far less chances and this led to fewer INTs and a higher completion percentage. Namath had a 5.8% interception probability; Dawson's was 4.9%. Dawson threw many short passes to his running backs. From The Pro Football Chronicle (one of the great football books, but now out of print): His 19-year career is longer than any quarterback's except George Blanda, but it started slowly. He threw only 45 passes his first five seasons, washed out with two NFL teams and was said to have a bad arm. Hooking up with former college coach Hank Stram in the AFL saved him. It's hard to get a read on just how good he was because he was 35 when the leagues merged. He won one Super Bowl and played well in another, but was he any better than John Brodie?
