NYYankees Offseason Thread

Discussion in 'Baseball Forum' started by EcKo151, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. AMJets

    AMJets Well-Known Member

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    Scout.com's Top 20 prospects.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Fine with me. But let's be clear about one thing. I have no problem with "agreeing to disagree" about the Yankee fortunes. What I have a problem with is faulty reasoning. To use an example:

    We can agree to disagree about who was a better band, the Beatles or Pink Floyd. There are inherently subjective elements to music (similar to baseball) that make these kinds of disagreements perfectly normal. Expected, even.

    If, however, you tell me that one of the reasons that Pink Floyd is a better band is that they made more number one records, and were more prolific in their songwriting... well... you're just wrong. Because they didn't, and they weren't. And when the facts that support your opinion are erroneous, I would think the rational thing for any person to do would be to question the validity of their opinion. Unless, of course, they value the holding of that specific opinion as being greater than anything else, in which case, they will continue to hold the same opinion, regardless of whether facts support it.

    Considering that you are claming that you only read one paragraph of my last response, I have to assume that you are the latter case.

    No, that is not my stance. My stance is that the Yankee staff of 2008 is very likely to outperform the Yankee staff of 2007.

    Again, no! Holy reading comprehension, Batman! My stance is that the bullpen isn't automatically worse than last year's because we lost Vizcaino and Proctor. And that you can't put together a bullpen based on how so-and-so performed last year.

    Look, a baseball team's performance is a stochastic function. You put the same inputs in each year, you'll get different results, due to random factors. But it's still a function with a range of probability. My claim all along has been that the potential for this team is even greater than last year's team. And that includes the pen.

    The difference is that I (and others) have used factual evidence to support our "optimism," while you have used... what? Feelings? Platitudes?

    My argument wasn't we wouldn't have a "piecemeal, hodge podge staff" (although those probably aren't quite the words I'd use if I did make such an argument).

    My argument was that constructing the staff in such a manner isn't automatically a disastrous thing, and that whatever solution they decide on, it is a staff that should perform at a higher level than last year, based on talent alone. Or do you need a reminded about last year's staff?

    Just because you call the stats meaningless, doesn't mean they are. In this case, it either means you don't understand them, or you're being purposefully obtuse.

    And a "feel for the game" might be nice to have... but I'd put money, and lots of it, that your "feel" for the game doesn't do nearly as well as you think it does. Why? Human nature. Psychology. You're going to remember when your "feel" was right, and forget about the countless times that it was wrong. In other words, staking your analyses on a feel for the game amounts to new-age gobbledy-gook.

    People who base the bulk of their judgments on feelings as opposed to rational thought are the kinds of people who would push all-in based on a "feeling" about the next card to come. I love playing poker against them. I take their money.
     
  3. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the double post, but I just thought of a great way to sum this up:

    I am not saying that I am optimistic about the Yankees. As in, I would never make any guarantees about this kind of thing, because there's too much variability.

    I AM saying that this negativity is uncalled for, though. And the reasons you give that allegedly support your negativity are unfounded or incorrect.

    So I'm not saying, "The Yankees are going to be great!" What I'm saying is, "It's foolish to say that they're definitely going to be worse than last year."

    Perhaps that's too subtle a distinction for you to pick up, but I find it to be vital.
     
  4. jonnyd

    jonnyd 2007 TGG.com Funniest Poster Award Winner

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    you wouldnt use hodge podge- I wouldnt use "holy reading comprehension Batman".
     
  5. dwalsh

    dwalsh 2006 TGG.com Rookie of the Year Award Winner

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    http://www.nypost.com/seven/02122008/sports/yankees/its_a_setup_97303.htm?page=0
    Although I was vehemently against this originally, I have warmed up to it, and actually agree with this plan now. It will keep Joba around the 140 inning mark, and help stabilize the bullpen in the beginning of the season. AS LONG AS, no matter how dominant he is in the bullpen, he still becomes a starter, NO MATTER WHAT.

    Also, by the time Joba will go down to the minors briefly to stretch out to resume his starting duties, hopefully Humberto Sanchez or Mark Melancon will be ready to contribute on the big league level.

    Here's a little bit on Mark Melancon
    ...and Humberto Sanchez
     
    #805 dwalsh, Feb 12, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2008
  6. AlioTheFool

    AlioTheFool Spiveymaniac

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    I was highly against the pen for Joba for the same reason I still am. I'm afraid he'll get stuck there. They can say they want him to eventually start until they're blue in the face. That doesn't mean it will happen.

    If things go according to plan, then a year from now, we'll be saying this was a great move in 20/20 hindsight. If any part of the plan breaks down though, we're all going to be pissed off we didn't just sacrifice Hughes for Santana.

    Ah, spring...
     
  7. jonnyd

    jonnyd 2007 TGG.com Funniest Poster Award Winner

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    im already pissed about santana, just for the record
     
  8. AlioTheFool

    AlioTheFool Spiveymaniac

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    Really? I'd have never thought it...
     
  9. macbk

    macbk Well-Known Member

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    2 days off from March 31st to May 4th?

    Pretty ridiculous, no?
     
  10. MisterMoss

    MisterMoss PRO-American

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    That is odd, especially considering the beginning of the season has always been packed with off days in the past.
     
  11. jonnyd

    jonnyd 2007 TGG.com Funniest Poster Award Winner

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    just makin sure....
     
  12. AlioTheFool

    AlioTheFool Spiveymaniac

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    This might be a big blessing in disguise though. It will give guys more rest during the hotter months and possibly leave them a little more fresh for the post-season.
     
  13. AMJets

    AMJets Well-Known Member

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    The only way Joba will stay in the bullpen is if he can't handle being a starter. Boston did everything they could to make Papelbon a starter, but after being a closer, he just didn't feel comfortable as a starter anymore. I don't think Joba will have the same issue, but you never know.
     
  14. jonnyd

    jonnyd 2007 TGG.com Funniest Poster Award Winner

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    either way, joba fills a huge need, whether its starting or relieving
     
  15. CaptainClutch21

    CaptainClutch21 New Member

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    a few interesting points....

    im not looking forward to the "3-4 weeks" we have to send joba to the minors to stretch him out... although dwalsh makes a good point of this making a nice opportunity for humberto or marquez to work from the bullpen, maybe making a run at the post season roster.

    also, i too was against this and agree that this should only be done if it is GUARENTEED that he will return to the rotation. i can see him dominating and recreating this hype, leaving the yankees worried about the post rivera era.

    exciting to read about melanchon and humberto. with the career high of 123 innings and the trinity locked in the rotation in the upcoming years, along with wang, it seems to me that he should just move to the pen.

    i will go on record supporting keeping hughes. with the recent sucess and hype of Joba, people forget that he was the #1 pitching prospect. people seem to only remember how he was below par after coming back from the hammy injury but forget how dominant he was before the injury, and in the playoffs when he had started to recover. a full offseason of rest will allow his hammy to fully heal and bring him back to pushing though his fastballs getting back to his pinpoint control, rather then leaving the ball up . hughes may not turn out to be as good as johan for obvious reasons but we can have him for a good 5-6 years without forfeiting the 20mil we would have had to for johan. people like to say that payroll doesnt matter for the yankees but saving money on young cheap talent is always a plus, especially when its home grown.
     
  16. devilonthetownhallroof

    devilonthetownhallroof 2007 TGG Fantasy Baseball League Champion

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    I'm not sure about that. Papelbon said all the right things, but there isn't a pitcher alive that doesn't want to start. Obviously I don't have solid proof, but I'm fairly certain it was a team decision, and the wrong one. Chamberlain could end up stuck in the bullpen if Rivera falters or get injured.
     
  17. AMJets

    AMJets Well-Known Member

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    http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/a...d=1854433&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

     
  18. Guelah97

    Guelah97 Member

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    I think it would be good to have Joba in the pen and groom him to replace Mariano. Having Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation plus Mussina and an aging Pettite, we might have a hard time getting a starter through 6 innings except for Wang.

    This was also a major problem last season, especially early in the year when a had a plethora of young pitchers. If everyone remembers, once we got our starters back our bullpen was shot from over use in april and may. And we had to scramble to make the playoffs.

    Joba would be good in the bullpen because once a lead dwindles with Igawa, Bruney, Farnsworth and Hawkins we know when we get to the 8th we can stop the bleeding and in the 9th we can slam the door. Dont forget we also lost Vizcaino, who rebounded nicely and was a major cog down the stretch last year once he got over his tired arm.

    Keep Joba in the pen, I think it would be more important to have him out there 60+ games than possibly 25. Have him throw 2 innings here and there, he's used to being a starter. 60 games 90 - 100 innings of Joba sounds good to me.
     
  19. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Why does everyone keep talking about "an aging Pettitte" like he's 41 or something? He's 35. Granted, he's not a spring chicken, but he didn't show anything last year to make me think we should be concerned about his ability to be effective for 6+ innings.

    Losing Vizcaino isn't going to hurt as much as some people think, either. He might've had a nice stretch run, but he was inconsistent, and also had a "tired shoulder" at the end of the season.

    And why on earth would you want 100 innings of Joba when you could have 140? Or 200 innings, in future years?

    IF... and this is a gigantic "if"... IF they used Joba only in high-leverage situations, instead of having him be the "eighth inning guy," or the "closer" and he got 100 innings per year, you could make the argument that he'd be as valuable in the pen as he would be starting. But no manager would use him like that, so his value is far, far greater to any team as a starter.

    The Red Sox made a huge mistake with Papelbon. That makes me happy. I don't want to see the Yankees make the same kind of mistake with Joba.
     
  20. Guelah97

    Guelah97 Member

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    Was converting Mariano a huge mistake?
     

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