Once June 1st comes Revis is a sunk cost on the 2013 cap and he will cost the Jets at least $9M on 2014 whether he stays or goes.
Assuming Revis is still the same player after the injury, I'd rather they kept him at a higher rate and moved Cro simply because I'm unsure that Cro will be the same without Rex.
You can have all sort of fantasy you want, but you are not really talking. What you forgot to mention is, Brick's cap figure remains at 10M for the next 3 years. Jets do not even have a legitimate replacement on deck. So are you saying Jets will just cut him next year to save 2.5M? If you still don't get it, his cap saving is almost irrelevant in this discussion. That does not give a reason to restructure. (Either for the franchise or the player. MAYBE for an immediate cap relief, but that's about all the reason you can think of. And you know that's not a good idea, right?) It is near impossible to cut him anyway, given the situation. Fine. Let's say Jets do move his salary. Does that mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Jets still owe him 30M for the next three years - that fact won't change. So, instead of 10M/yr figure, Jets will now deal with some 7M/yr figure this year, at the cost of 11-12M/yr figure for the next two years. Are you telling me that is the brilliant solution to this mess? Like I said somewhere in this post, starter quality LTs pick up somewhere around 5-6M/yr and 7M/yr if they get a ridiculous contract. There is no way you can make that happen with Ferguson's contract - not even in your wildest fantasy numbers. If you still do not get it, drill this to your head: Ferguson at 10M/yr is grossly overpriced tag. You can move the money around all you want, but the fact remains the same - Jets still owe him 30M for 3 years. (If you make him earn that 30M for four years, that's what pay cut is, isn't it?) Or... we can even imagine Jets front backloading the entire contract, with the intention to cut him at the last year. (Yes. THIS is the standard practice.) The problem is, he will know it too. And if he's here to stay as you claim, then there is no other way. You will have to pay the piper at one time or another. Also, this is the kind of problem Jets have with nearly all of their bloated contract. Sure, you can move Harris's salary into the future, but the total will still remain the same ($20M for 2 years - a grossly overpaid contract.) Mangold? More of the same shit. (9M/7M/10M for Mangold, 10/10/11 for Ferguson, while both providing less than 2-3M of cap saving if cut even after 2013. Santonio? It's even more preposterous - 12.5M fully guaranteed this year, and then 10.75/9.25. Realistic scenario for Tone situation is to let him sit in Jets camp this season, then cut him after this season; and take the massive dead money along the way. And don't even bring up Nacho's contract.) Like I said, restructuring is not the magic solution to the problem. At this point, Jets have quite a few bloated contract that they cannot move, and unless Jets extend the entire contract while fixing the total amount paid, the cap figure won't go down. Cap relief this year will mean more disaster for the coming years. (Refer to the Ferguson dilemma above.) On top of that, Jets do not even have a suitable replacement for them anyway. Cutting them is impossible from that point of view alone. You seem to lack the gift of foresight. If you move that 15M owed this year to the future, Jets will have 15M less of cap space in total for the near future, no? If you are planning to drop Sanchez and Santonio, that means you still have to find a starter quality players in these spots, and pay them accordingly too, no? (Or are you blindly hoping Jets will draft someone and be fine with that?) And we don't even know what will happen to the total salary cap size for the future at this point. Do you really think it is such a brilliant idea to mortgage the future for a little bit of immediate cap relief? In such a horrible economic circumstance as it is now? Good fucking riddance. On top of that, you just don't seem to grasp the idea that, any player outside QB is overpriced if his tag goes beyond 5M mark. Carrying Ferguson at 11~12M/yr tag is more than ridiculous. (Or, paying him 30M for 3 years of service, let's just say.) You can pull all kind of hocus pocus on his contract, but Jets still owe him 30M. (And every other stupid contracts like that.) Jets would do really well to draft fantastically this year. They might need a complete overhaul - just to leverage these vets with bloated contracts so they restructure.
We'll find out who's talking come pre season. What have I been saying all along? Are you even paying attention? I hate to turn this into a personal argument, but you continue to ignore pretty much everything I say (or maybe Im not crystal clear?). I never said Jets will replace Brick. Ive been saying "you restructure a player you KNOW you will keep for the whole contract". The player is paid the same amount of salary each year as originally agreed upon, but restructuring just changes whats accounted for each year. It is relevant. Lets assume B'rick tears an MCL next yr and comes back 60% of the player he used to be. Now there's a concern whether to pay him $10 in base salary, or to cut him and take on the cap hit (same cap hit saved this year). If the dead money is $7mil and base salary is $5mil, I doubt Jets release him and take on a $2mil cap hit (these are just sample figures. Not gonna bother looking at actuals). B'rick would love to restructure. In fact, I don't see why a player would NOT restructure. Maybe in your fantasy world, a ridiculous LT contract is $7m/yr. In the NFL, elite LTs will and do make over $10m. Clady turned down 5 yr $50m contract. Joe Thomas signed an 8 yr $92m contract. Jason Peters signed a 6 yr $60m contract. Only in your fantasy world....and no one s talking pay cut, no one is taking pay cut. Lol @ standard practice. That is NOT the standard practice in restructuring contracts. Initial contracts? yes. Restructures? Not possible and not happening. You seriously don't know how contracts work and I mean it (not trying to insult u). Finally something stuck to you. We are just changing his cap charge for the current year to get cap relief. Some contracts and made in such a way that if you need cap relief in certain years, you can easily maneuver them. That's what Tanny used to do. He'd have a ridiculous amount of base salary in one of the years and if Jets need cap relief, he would restructure them. Tanny's philosophy fell apart when he miscalculated amount of gas left in Bart and Pace's tank. The contracts to Santonio and Sanchez didn't pay off either. Those are currently the four biggest contracts Jets don't need/want. Part of the blame lies on the scouting team and the CS, since we all know Tanny wasn't hired as a player personnel/evaluator specialist. Like I've been saying all along, Santonio and Sanchez's contracts will be off the books by 2014 and most likely Revis won't be here in 2014 either. Thats about $30+mil that you will not account for in 2014 (most of it). Please be advised that the page I pulled up was not mine and I don't agree with all of the players listed on it. I don't agree with restructuring Mangold. Harris is making $7m next year but $13 this year. That gap can be closed while we save $3mil this year. The cap in 2014 will not be as much of a mess simply because we are already taking on a ton of dead money in 2013 through Pace, Scott, and few others. That page also doesn't have Tebow in it. Tebow is not going to be in NY next year. Thats another couple of mil off the books. Never said we were cutting ties with Harris or Brick. Why are you making it so tough on yourself? All i said we will cut Pace, Bart, Smith, Smith, Tebow and Pouha. Four of those are obvious cuts. Obvious cuts even before the 2012 season started. Dude, is there anything wrong with? How the hell do u think Jets are going to bring in 10-14 starters with $15 cap space??? 2013 is the year we need cap relief in. 2014 and beyond look fine for now. And when we drop Sanchez and Santonio and bring in their replacements, it wont cost us $25mils unless we were signing some big name FAs. We might spend $5m on WR and another $5mil on QB depending on who's available. Lol, this one cracked me up. To you, if AP was a FA and we could have him for $7mil, you'd back off. If Revis wanted a 5 year $35mil contract, you'd show him the door. Same with about another dozens of players. Your $ skills are weak. This is not 1990 anymore. You've got to adapt to new rules. Please learn the salary cap and contracts before u start running ur mouth as if ur a genius? Cuz ur not.
I never said Jets will replace Brick either. I was simply pointing out that, his cap hit argument has no ground, and Jets front office, as it stands now, has no leveraging point. (You don't seem to acknowledge this fact either.) So we now have to plan for every freak accident that "might" happen? Yeah. Very stupid assumption to say the least. That ACL or any other season-ending freak injury applies to everybody on the roster - so what kind of protection are you suggesting now? Hell, why even bother guaranteeing any portion of the contract in the first place? (In other words: can't you find a relevant example? I'm listening.) Joe Thomas plays for who? That's right. Cleveland Browns. Jason Peters? Philadelphia Eagles. As for this year, Ryan Clady plays for 3.5M/yr. As you can see, other than Clady, these two 10M LTs play for losing franchises. Yep - that is the keyword. Instead of the highest paid players, go look up on how the winning franchises structure their salary cap yourself. You will not see many 10M contracts on their book - QB, then maybe one more at most. (In some cases like the Ravens, nobody goes over 9M - and that 9M contract belongs to Ed Reed.) So are you telling me Jets should follow the Cleveland Browns model and Philadelphia Eagles model and remain mediocre? (Giving out 10+M contracts to multiple players will surely result in that.) And you will need a starter in their places too, right? Are they playing for free? (Or how do you get 30M off the book?)
Nevermind. You don't need leverage to turn base salary in to roster bonus. You just dont. I doesn't hurt the player in any way possible and gives its team immediate cap relief. Can you explain why a player would NOT convert base to bonus? Yes, and its common. NFL player's career can end on any play. It can diminish their skills on any play (serious injuries). And you are not making any more sense talking nonsense about not guaranteeing any portion of contracts. So now it matters which team a player plays for to consider his value? I just told Clady turned down a $10Mil offer, which suggests to me that elite LT make $10+mil. Are you seriously going to argue this? It makes u look dumb. Please don't. And in case u haven't noticed, Eagles have been far more successful than the Jets this century. Are you suggesting we are going to pay $15mil to the QB that would replace Sanchez? I would love as long as he is worth it. But the chances of that happening are slim. We are also not going to pay $10mil to a WR anytime soon. Same with CB.
Who knows? Maybe Clady is playing the game Revis played a few years ago. That does not mean he should get 10M/yr, at the cost of weakening the entire team. If he believes so - I hope he finds a new home soon, and he can compete for the playoffs. I don't think he will. And Eagles 'in the past' have been successful. So how did that 10M/yr LT turn outlast year? They couldn't protect a thing worth jack shit. Which in turn means he was overpaid as well - and he does not provide any basis for the future salary consideration either. I didn't suggest that either. I was merely saying Jets can't clear 30M off the book by getting rid of Nacho, Tone and Revis because they need to be replaced with someone else. (And the last line has me intrigued - Jets won't be paying 10M salary to a CB in the future, but Revis deserves 15M? What?)
OK, so you are trying to compare how those respective teams played based on LTs value and I can see where you are going with that. So here's what I did. I couldn't find franchise tag info for 2013, but here is the list of tag value for all positions in 2012: Quarterback: $14.4 million Running Back: $7.7 million Wide Receiver: $9.4 million Tight End: $5.4 million Offensive Line: $9.4 million Defensive End: $10.6 million Defensive Tackle: $7.9 million Linebacker: $8.8 million Cornerback: $10.6 million Safety: $6.2 million As you can see, each and every single position is making more than your "anything over $5mil mark is overpaid" landmark. Keep in mind, LTs make far more money than Guards, Center or RT, and Laurence Taylor is the reasoning behind it. Please stop arguing. Just stop.
trading Revis isn't gonna get us a franchise QB so why do it , The only trade that would make sense is trading him for a number 1 pick when there was a Andrew Luck type available, In a passing league with QB's getting better and better Revis is a must have, Without him I don't think we go to back to back AFC title games he was that important those two years
Great point. I'd trade Revis if it meant we can get a QB worthy of Revis money. There aren't any on the FA market. Drafting a QB that might become the next Brady wouldn't command cap-killing salary. Either way you slice it, releasing Revis this upcoming year makes no sense (unless of course we get like two 1st rounders, and a starting player - not happening). And yes, even with Revis, Jets barely snuck in to the playoffs. Without him, Jets would have been a 6-8 win team (Just like this year).
Agreed. But the cap situation this year will forbid the Jets from trading him. Jets may end up biting the bullet and taking on an additional $3mil cap hit while losing the best corner in the league, but the chances of that happening is slim to none. We'll have to take on that cap hit of $3mil again next year if we wait, but at least we aren't $20mil over the cap in 2014 (yet). I do see Cro to be a strong candidate for trade in 2014.
Add the numbers up and see if that works. You should stop arguing. Don't just look at the number. Think. P.S. If you don't understand why that 5M figure popped out, you should not even respond to this. You need help in basic reasoning and math, not in some wild fantasy in cap manipulation. P.S. Cherry picking for your own liking is not how you should choose your data. The values you presented is clearly an outlier value - which bears no importance other than their excessive value. Again, check the salary cap structure in general. See how many 10+M contract a team gives out in any given year. A team will have two or three at maximum -unless that team happens to be the Jets.
Add those numbers up? Why? You haven't made sense in this entire thread. You said anyone being paid over $5m (besides QB) is overpaid. I showed you the AVERAGE of top 5 salaries for each position. Not cherry picking any numbers. As far as the $5mil claim goes, an average starter can be had at HB, WR, OL, DL, LB, and CB. Brick is not ur average starter. Mangold is not ur average starter. Mo is not ur average starter (don't even bring up his salary - its a rookie contract). Harris is not ur average starter. Cro is not ur average starter. Revis is not ur average starter. Santonio is an average starter and hence, should not be paid over $5mil. Sanchez played average until this year so he certainly doesn't deserve most of his $13mil. And if you have Brady on ur side, he makes ur average starter look superior. You don't need many $10m a year guys (especially when Brady will be playing at $22mil next year.
Great but simple post. The simple but clear point to be raised here is the idea of trading anybody should depend on some combination of what it does to the roster and cap, and the other major consideration is WHAT YOU GET IN RETURN.
If you believe Revis will still be a Jet in 2014 and not walk in free agency I would agree. But I have a feeling Revis will not be a jet in 2014, I think he walks.
We have way to many arm chair GM's on this board. We have a tough cap situation lets see what a qualified person can do with all the facts.
Even with the rest of the roster filled with minimum wage guys, you will get 110M to pay 22 guys. How is this nonsense? And as you said, the average of TOP 5 salary means that's the average from the most skewed five data from the given set - which is the exact definition of outlier value. Whether they live up to the value is another question (I don't think they do.) Last, but not the least, DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE TOP NUMBERS THAT APPEASES YOU. WATCH HOW THE CAP IS STRUCTURED. 1. I don't think Brick or Mangold is 'twice' the player that average OL player is in NFL. I can understand the claim that they are 'good.' But do they deserve 10m/yr salary ballpark? 2. Same with everyone else. If you give out 10M/yr salary to these players that play in position with less impact: First, 8 guys at 80M, right? (6 guys at 10m/yr + Tone + Nacho) then 14 guys will be picking up the rest of 30M, roughly 2M/yr. That is not 5M/yr figure exactly, is it? If you looked at the salary cap structure from various organizations, you'd easily find that starter quality (= average) players do command more than just that in any position. (For this reason, most teams fill their rosters with 3.5~4.5M contracts, then the upper tier is some 6-7M, then there is QB and that other 10M guy.) This in turn means that roster spot will be filled by someone with less than starter quality. The only way to fit the entire roster and still pay some with albatross contract is through drafting well (and keeping the players while they are playing for peanuts.) Now that's not exactly what Tannenbaum did in the past either. So, now, instead of trying to shed the albatross contract, Jets should 'restructure' the money into the future, simply because they will drop a few more of it? First of all, that's what Tannenbaum did in 2009 and 2010. Secondly, borrowing from the future all the time is a sure-fire recipe for a failure. Second, if you do get a pass rusher and a good safety, that average will drop down to the level of backups and fringe players. That's what you think is a good team set-up, right? What happens if one of the high-priced players goes down? So, how is spreading the wealth not making any sense to you? This is why QBs deserve their salary figure - as long as they can do these things well. That is, they can elevate the playing potential of the entire offense. A QB is relevant in either run or pass, and he plays all three downs. Now, is there a single defensive position that can do the same? With same magnitude of impact?
Skewing data would mean picking up a single players contract and comparing it. Picking up top 5 guys salary and averaging is not called skewing. Its called what top guys at their respective position are being paid. By theory, the 22 x 5 theory works out great. But show me a team that has 22 guys making $4-6mil each and I'll show u teams that have players averaging contracts in double digit mils a year. Point is, paying $10 mil to a guys isn't necessarily overpaying if they are worth it. In ur world, Revis is only as good as $5mil a yr. Not here. In ur world, Brick is as good as $5-7mil a year. Not here. Unfortunately, your theory does not dictate who gets paid what. I wish it did, but this is not disney world. And yes, Brick and Mangold's play and their contracts are justifiable. Good luck finding 10+ starters with $15mil of cap space. Need starters at RB, TE, RG, LG, RT, ILB, OLB, FS, SS, and K and another dozen in backups. How will having $15mil with 20 players (including 10 starters and the draft picks) to sign work out? Never said lets jump after the highest priced FAs. All I said Ferguson, Mangold and Harris' contracts are justifiable and a few of the contracts can and WILL be restructured. U can bet on that. Please stop talking nonsense. At least we agree on something. Jets don't have Brady. Thats why they have to sign better players to negate the affect of not having an elite QB (or even an average QB). ----> Before u reply to this post, Please tell me how Jets will sign their draftees, 10 starters, and another 10 or so backup/ST players with $15mil. I don't think I want minimum wage players to be starting for me, but go ahead, explain. And you still haven't told me why a player would NOT wanna convert base in to bonus.
trading Revis would only make sense if we cant net a franchise QB, and frankly that could never happen. Franchise QB > franchise CB. Even though I believe Revis is probably the best CB to ever play, teams don't value them as much as QBs. I would not trade him for a pick or another player. Just keep him.
