what makes you think they would choose hill over nelson if nelson is playing better? nelson was an idzick pickup and idzick has no vested interest in hill outside of if he can play or not. he didn't make the pick.
I was indeed referring to those lines, and I think even before that under Mangini when the Jets were considered to have one of, if not the best OL in the game. They didn't win the division championship and didn't with the AFC Championship, didn't even get a 1st round BYE in the playoffs. Until they win something like that, then imo they haven't done squat. We are talking past each other. I have not said that the Jets should give out a huge contract to a FA WR, nor have I said that they need one of the top WRs in the NFL. If you'll go back and re-read my posts in this thread, I said they need quality WR not below average or average WRs. Mike was trying to make the point that WRs were not important and that a great OL coupled with a great QB could make below average WRs "elite" which is ridiculous and untrue. I have been trying to make the point that the team needs balance. I don't think a huge portion of the cap space should be tied up in any one unit of the team. IMO it should be distributed fairly evenly across the roster. Any unit that consists of cheap players isn't gonna be very good either because the players are not productive or they are all rookies and inexperienced. Further a very good, if not great OL can be built with a high draft pick or two and mid, low-round draft picks and/or UDFAs and one doesn't need 5 first round picks on the ol.
If you consider making 2 straight AFC championship games and/or being competitive with struggling/washed up quarterbacks as not having done squat, what can I say, you got high standards my friend. Well, arguments can often gravitate toward extreme positions. Our side is not saying we should have crappy receivers, just like I am sure your side doesn't want a crappy offensive line. All of us want a more or less balanced team, with good players everywhere. It's just a matter of priority. Mike's point was not that he doesn't want us to get good receivers, but that he doesn't want to pay these guys a huge amount of money that they usually command in free agency, or spend very high draft picks on them, which I agree with. You can still find decent receivers beyond the first round, or find them in free agency for less money, as long as you don't target the high end ones. The big money and high picks should be spent on more valuable positions such as QB, Left Tackle, Pass Rushers, DTs, possibly dominant center, etc. All we are saying is good qb + good OL + average to decent WRs is better than average to decent qb + OL + good WRs. You may of course disagree with that.
Yes, a lot of times positions do get polarized, but I hate it when they do. I think often times posters are more in agreement than perhaps they realize, or perhaps more than they're willing to admit, because they allow their egos to get involved. We are more in agreement than I thought, but still don't see eye-to-eye. You yourself just said "decent" WRs, and I don't think that "decent" WRs are good enough. "Decent" to me says average or maybe a little below or above average. IMO that's not good enough to get it done. While I totally understand your not wanting to spend big money on a FA WR (with which I agree incidentally), I don't understand your reasoning at all against using a high draft pick on a WR. This draft is unusual in that it is is very deep draft and one will be able to find some very good WRs after the first couple of rounds, but that is often not the case. While a WR doesn't have to be a top 5, I think that the better teams need at least one of their WRs in the top 20. I see absolutely no reason to eschew taking a WR until the middle or lower rounds. They're just too important, especially compared with a center or DT. I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense to me. NT is one thing, but DT, no. Finally, I can understand your last two sentences (that I bolded). Teams have been very good and done it both ways. Mike and you obviously prefer to have the strong OL, and I prefer to have the stronger WR corps. That's fair. What I still don't get is your aversion to using a high draft pick on a WR. Having a very strong OL and having a very good WR are not mutually exclusive.
I'm sorry, but he is not terrible. He may not be great, or an All Pro, but he's pretty good and better than anyone the Jets have now other than Kerley and he may even be better than Kerley, especially as a returner.
I would take either on a low-risk high reward type deal. We should really address WR with one signing at a reasonable rate and the rest through the draft.
why are we looking for cheap guys this year anyhow? we're doing a little better in terms of cap space, why so frugal? somehow I think our apparent desire to sign Maclin to a cheapo year is gonna hurt us more than help us. I'd rather Sanders if the contract were for 3 years or so, fix a price you can work with until this years rookie WR is up for a contract year. Don't sign Maclin for cheap this year just so you have the honor of paying him 10 million+ for the next two if he's effective when they can probably set an efficient price for somebody of comparable quality right now and not have to worry about future negotiations. if that means paying that player heavier this year than do it, its not as much of a worry as it will be the next few years with developing talent to re-up with.
Your logic is flawed. Just because they pay Maclin less this year on a show me deal, doesn't mean he's gonna make $10 million next year. I'm sure that Maclin's production would have to be at a seriously All Pro level to come anywhere near that kind of salary, and it would probably take 2-3 years of that kind of production to get him to that level. Rightfully so, Idzik believes in building the team through the draft, not FA. He uses FA to all flexibility in the draft, that is he addresses needs by bringing in competition and potential upgrades at those positions of need, so he isn't forced to have to draft out of need, and he can be free to take BPA. That's the smartest way to go about building a team. Tanny wouldn't have known a great player if he walked up and slapped him. Tanny's only way of identifying talent was because it was hyped by the media and overpriced. He also loved the spotlight and talking about himself, so it was a no-brainer for him to make big splashy moves so he could garner lots of attention and say that he had "done a good job" addressing the team's needs." You already know this, but one doesn't have to have an All Pro at every position, and in fact, no team can do this. Just because the Jets have significant cap space this year doesn't mean he should just go on a spending binge "just because," especially if it goes against his training and principles. I'm sure that he will try to sign players that he thinks will help the team. I think he'd even be willing to pay fairly big money for some players, but I don't think he's the type to just go after the best player at his position in the NFL and pay huge money. I think he will try to address multiple holes on the team and try to sign maybe 5-6 guys, maybe more if they don't re-up Wilk this year, rather than shooting the whole wad on 2 players (say Byrd and Orakpo or Byrd and Decker). IMO, that's the wisest approach. I can see Idzik going after players like Asamoah, Verner, and TJ Ward if the bidding doesn't get too high because they are all young top quality players who could help the team for a long time, plus some second and perhaps 3rd tier FAs. I'm sure he'll also save a big chunk of cap space in case of injuries during the season and for any TC cuts they may be really high on.
A few things Nelson has going for him.....excellent blocker, good ST player, and he's cost effective. Nelson would be a good #4 WR, not flashy, but reliable.
His job status depends on 1. How many new additions we make to the WR core this off season. 2. The development of Stephen Hill in training camp. Nelson's ST ability definitely helps him out.
understood, I just think if he's the "#1 WR" we want him to be it might be difficult retaining him because of some other team willing to pay him more, which would drive up costs from what he would make otherwise. that has me fearing the possibility of him joining since we may have had to over pay a guy when we could have gone to another for less in the long run. but thinking about it more, that assumes whatever vet we pick up is a part of our long term (or even 3 year) plans in the first place... A thought that planted itself into my mind since the whole point of bringing in a badly injured player on a show me contract was so that he could SHOW US a reason why he's worth that money. Never crossed my mind that jets wouldn't play that game anyhow and might just want him as a stopgap of sorts for a draftee. As a fill in for a prospect... I'd still rather a player thats not Maclin due to his injury. I mean we'd be looking for a man to be the primary target while our rookie WR gets his NFL bearings right? he MIGHT not be able to do that and while we may get a failed pickup for a low amount... he'd still be a failed pickup. a lot of risk all around with him, that said its not like there aren't other targets out there.
Maclin or Sanders aren't no. 1 receivers either. But I would take one of them. Hopefully we go in on Nicks.
I certainly understand your hesitance or objections to Maclin considering his injury history. The thing is if they do sign him AND draft a WR in the first 3 rounds, plus maybe another at some point, then unless the rookies were just as raw as could be (which I can't see being the case in this year's class of WRs), then even if Maclin did go down with injury again, one of the rookies should be able to step into his position and produce. If Maclin stays healthy they'd get excellent production probably fairly cheaply. If he doesn't stay healthy, he still could help the team with mentoring the young WRs. If the Jets sign him to a one or two-year deal, he stays healthy and puts up big numbers, then another team throws big money at him, then that would be a bridge to cross at that point in time. Idzik would have to decide if he thought Maclin was worth it, or Maclin might say that he loves it with the Jets and is willing to stay here for less since they were willing to take a risk on him when he was coming off a major injury. Bray was willing to, so it's not out of the question that Maclin might be willing to do so. Even if the Jets let him walk after two years, they still would have gotten 2 years good production (supposedly) from him at a pretty cheap price, and then probably would get a 3rd round comp pick for losing him. That wouldn't be too shabby at all. Particularly after the luck the Jets had last season with the vets that Idzik had to sign due to no cap space, signing Maclin would be a concern. The thing is, aside from Sanders, there's not really another WR that I'd really want them to sign, and I think they need a veteran. It's just the Jets luck that in an offseason where they have a huge need at WR and have a lot of cap space, the choices are extremely limited. At an earlier point I wanted Golden Tate, but not any longer. Anquan Boldin is too old and would only be a stopgap. Maclin as you mention could only be a stopgap too, but at least if he can stay healthy, he has the potential to help the Jets longer. It helps a lot too that he knows MM's system. I see McCluster as more of a 3rd down back and returner. While Ted Ginn has shown a lot of improvement with Carolina, he's still hardly the answer except at returner. Similarly, Brandon LaFell showed some improvement, but not enough. Aside from Nicks, Maclin is also the only veteran #1 WR available. Nicks has injury issues as well as attitude, hands and work ethic issues. Decker will probably be too expensive and has hands issues. I don't think the Jets should go into the season with Kerley, Nelson, and maybe Salas, and two or three rookie WRs. I think they need another vet, and preferably a #1. Adding Sanders or McCluster would be insurance if Kerley got injured again and would be an upgrade at PR and KR for the Jets.
We're assuming 6 receivers correct? Holmes and Salas are going to be gone, and I guess there is a third guy I'm forgetting. That would leave us with Kerley, Nelson and Hill going into the offseason. That basically leaves three openings for receivers. We'll more than likely sign two FA receivers. Maclin on a "show me" deal and someone like Jacoby Ford. I doubt we'll spend big and I think the signings will be cost effective. With 12 picks I think we'll double dip at receiver. We'll take one in the first rounds and then one at the end of the draft. That would leave us with Kerley Nelson Hill Free Agent Free Agent Draft Pick Draft Pick Thats 7 receivers for 6 slots with the late round pick probably just chilling on the practice squad. Thats how I see the offseason going with respect to WR's
How perfect would it be if a practice squad guy stepped up as reliable? Saalim Hakim could be our return guy, if Dwight Jones shows up and starts picking up where he left off, or at least being productive this discussion would be completely different. That might be asking too muxh of him, though.
Clyde "the glide" Gates, best WR in the NFL perhaps? :breakdance: Salas should get a shot, Hill isn't a lock but he's got an inside track if he plays to his size even remotely, the other two you mentioned are the closest to locks there is. The team will absolutely draft more than one WR (really hoping for Abbrederis in later rounds) and I wouldn't be shocked to see 6 spots given to the position after all is said and done. (with 3 TE's) theres certainly no need to be conservative with drafting as much talent as possible, hell i can see Idzik going on a splurge later on like he did with lineman last year, but with more picks.
Football tends to revolve around the quarterback, and whichever team manages to protect their quarterback and disrupt the other team's QB tends to win. That determines which positions are the most important. The QB obviously, left tackle and to a lesser degree the center, because they protect the QB, and DEs, DTs and pass rushing OLBs because they are the ones who can disrupt the QB. Also, the two lines are very important because they are the foundation for everything else. No matter how good your skill guys are, if the line cant block, there won't be enough space/time to run/throw the ball. Guards and Right Tackle are also important, but because those positions don't demand as much athletic ability/talent, they tend to be drafted lower down. Now that doesn't mean that you NEVER draft a WR in the first round. Obviously it depends on the exact situation, if the WR is the best player available by a huge margin, it's certainly worth considering, but on the other hand, if it's close, I think you should take a QB/Left Tackle/Pass rusher/Center if you need those.
