Anyone who argues their opinion is a fact is obviously delusional, a troll, or just plain stupid. Not that you're actually making that argument.
I'm losing it how? B/c nonsenical arguments are popping up about how Brady led his teams to SB wins and how he led big scoring drives? Again, if it was so easy to just lead your team to a SB winning FG why hasn't Manning done it? if it was so easy to go 80 yards w/ the SB on the line why hasn't Peyton done it at any time in his postseason career? Brady is taling waht the D gives them, do you think his OCs or HC are in his ear saying dump this pass off? He is making his reads and deciding to throw where he gives his receivers the best chance to complete the pass. I don't know what you are arguing, you are trying to take credit away from Brady in that Philly SB for some reason as if he was just there smiling and posing for pictures while his offense scored 10 pts to take a 10 pt lead in the 4th qtr of a SB. 105 of those yds came on nice plays by Branch Do you see how everything he does you try to take credit away? Deion Branch MIGHT be a #3 WR on Indy, why wasn't Peyton in title games making plays like that and putting his MORE talented WRs in position to make plays? This argument is as easy as can be. You guys are throwing out whacky statements w/ nothing to back it up. AGAIN, what have those "amazing" coaches done w/o Tom Brady? What was wrong w/ Peyton's coaches? You do realize Dungy had more success w/o Peyton than BB had w/ Brady, right? Tom Brady is the biggest factor in the Pats dynasty, w/o him they don't have a SB this decade. He is and was that big for them. Belichick would be a defensive coordinator somewhere right now if Brady hadn't emerged. People think Manning is better simply b/c of regular season stats that are skewed by playing more than half his games in domes and rarely having to face any Northeast or midwest type of weather conditions. I understand that, it's easy to look at his #s and think that but some of us dig deeper and understand the game a little better. To those that do this is as easy as can be, the 2 aren't close right now. It's not even the SB wins, if peyton would have done more in January and they still lost my argument would be different but peyton has been the main culprit in Indy playoff losses b/c he fails to look anywhere close to regular season Peyton. Ben won the SUPER BOWL for his team, right? Brady would have 2-3 SBs in Indy right now, maybe more. Ben would win in Indy as well b/c both guys don't melt under pressure the way Peyton does. Is Peyton the more physically gifted QB? Sure but there is alot more to this game than physical gifts and peyton is mentally weak. Football is a team game and no position on the football field is more important than QB. You think it was coincidence Miami won the div and we were 2 games back last year? You apparently think it is coincidence that NE was 5-11 in '00 and 0-2 in '01 then miraculously started winning once Brady came on the field and it's purely a coincidence that BB has done nothing as a HC w/o Brady. The wheels coming off? :rofl: I am laughing at your weak arguments. This isn't even a contest, you are playing the role of the 2008 Detroit Lions here w/ all the lame excuses about Brady while I point out FACTS about the 2. You are correct about that. He has ONE. Poor Peyton, he has had to carry guys like Marshall Faulk, Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Joesph Addai, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Ken Dilger, Marcus Pollard, Dominic Rhodes, ... Come on Fenwyr, you are better than that. Imagine Peyton trying to force all thoe passes w/ the average offensive talent Brady had this decade. Imagine him throwing to Troy Brown as his #1 or reche Caldwell as his #1 or handing off to Antowain Smith. Have you watched the Colts playoff games this decade? I summarized the games for you. he clearly has held Indy back. This is the problem w/ the Manning backers. W/ Peyton everyone blames the OL, the RBs, the WRs, the D, the K, the coahces,... and w/ Brady everyone credits the Coaches, the D, the RBs, the WRs, the K, etc...
Both are great QB's. However, I would point out: In order for Peyton Manning to be "Peyton Manning", Indy has to devote 75% of their money and top picks to the offense. This leaves the defense and special teams exposed. Brady can have a "better team" because he can do more with less. Manning plays in a dome. This is not unimportant when discussing stats. In 2007, both teams had equal offensive talent. That's the best judge. Why is a Jet's blog discussing the QB's from NE/Indy?
I was wrong on the '06 title game drive, I thought it was a little earlier. he has ONE GW drive in postseason. He got them in position to tie the game against Oak then win. If he had vanderjagt his goal would have been to get closer unlike Peyton who, in '05 against Pitt, had 2nd and 2 on the Pitt 28 and took 2 shots at the EZ rather than getting his K closer. He had ZERO timeouts, just over a minute left and were around their own 17 yard line w/ the Super Bowl on the line. I KNOW you know football better than this to take awy credit from Brady. I guess when Indy scores it's all b/c of the QB but when the Pats do it's in spite of the QB? Who cares how many FGs Vinatieri kicked in that game? In the '06 div rd AV kicked 5 Fgs to lead Indy to that win- does that not count? He didn't need to do anything after they got it at the 20, that is another difference btw Brady and peyton. peyton would have tried to force a TD and probably turned it over, Brady knew the game was over w/ a FG. I notice you didn't mention Peyton's 4 INTs that game, do you think that might have hurt Indy? On one hand you say Brady didn't do anything special then you say NE held the ball for 37 mins- that isn't special? Heck, that's why the Giants won SB XXV against Buf, b/c their O held the ball all game and kept it out of the hands of Jim Kelly. 22 mins isn't enough to score more than 3 points? Indy had 10 possessions, the same as NE(except their 10th possession was taking a knee to end the game). Doesn't Manning and the O get some blame for not being able to put some first downs together and move the ball? Turnovers do count and Brady protects the ball while Manning is reckless. yes Pitt turned it over but Brady made them pay. 2 early TOs and NE had 10 pts already, that's what the great ones do. Turnovers help w/o question and the D definitely did their part in the '04 playoffs. There wasn't a close game where Brady made plays late in games b/c he didn't have to. Of their 3 runs this one was less on him than the other 2. Who cares if a long TD was a swing pass? As if this guys hasn't done long as it gets done. The SD game he didn't play well but you give him another shot and you regret it. SD gave him life and he took advantage unlike Peyton vs. Pitt in '05. The team had a big lead, how did they put the game on Brady in the 2nd half? He should have led them to more scores to keep Indy far enough behind but the D did blow a huge lead. Indy came right back in the 3rd qtr scoring 2 TDs to tie it and then Brady led NE right back for a TD(after great KR) to take 7 pt lead, Indy then tied it, Brady led them to FG to take lead, Indy tied it, Brady led to FG to take lead before Indy finally scored a TD to take a 4 pt lead. It was a back and forth 2nd half and Brady was doing it w/ Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as his top 2 WRs. These are 2 guys who wouldn't even have been able to get on the field in Indy let alone be the top 2 targets. LT and gates were limited against Indy too AND Rivers went down and they beat Indy in Indy. Doesn't matter what they did he led them on an 80 yd TD drive w/ the SB on the line in the final minutes. The dolphins were a good regular season defense. 1998-2001 reg season PPG: 17.4 PPG allowed 1998-2001 post season PPG: 25.2 PPG allowed(I took out the defensive TDs, I didn't have time to go through every reg season game but that PPG would have been lower had I done that). Only had the ball for 22 mins b/c he couldn't get his O going. He had as many possessions as Brady had but Brady and his O held it for 37 mins. Manning settled for a 46 yard FG w/ the K version of peyton Manning(great reg season K, terrible postseason). He had 2nd and 2 from the Pitt 28 and took 2 shots at the EZ instead of getting closer. Go ahead TD in 4th qtr? Indy was up 16-8 going into 4th qtr. The only reason the game was even somewhat a game was b/c of his INTs. ONE great half against NE. I don't think Brady deserved the MVP in SB XXXVI either BUT he led the team to the go ahead score so he at least did something. Manning did nothing. His D scored a TD, he had 2 RBs rush 40 times for 190 yds(4.8 YPC) and his D gave up just 10 pts. Yep but those picks didn't cost NE. He led a TD drive to put them up 21-12 after his 3rd INT then when he got the ball back w/ 9:13 to play he led a drive that ran out the clock. That's an amazing job even though his overall game wasn't great. I don't care about the yardage, that is meaningless. Chad threw for 300 yds in our 37-16 loss at NE in the '06 WC game, was that a good game? He was not good in that game, he made one play(a broken play) in the 2nd half and just one 1st down would have ended it but he got sacked on 3rd and 2.
No, you're losing it because you refuse to actually address anything being said. You deflect. It's pathetic. It's like an Eric Mangini press conference in here. Once again, Brady hasn't led his team to a game winning SB FG. His team has done it, and his role has been minimal every time. I'm not sure why that's so hard for you to understand. Yes, I do. With the time he's given by his offensive line, plays are able to fully develop, pull the defense out of position, and allow him to make those short, high percentage dumps that put his backs in position to make plays. It's a very efficient system and it suits him well. Smiling and posing for pictures? No, he was filling his role in the system beautifully, just like all of the other players in his offense. When it came time to put the game away, he couldn't do it. He let Philly hang around that whole 4th quarter. I'm not trying to take credit away. I already said that I believed he'd go down in history as the best QB of this generation. He's an excellent QB for that system. Other QBs wouldn't fit nearly as well as he does, and it's been incredibly successful for New England. It's no surprise that players who thrive under the team concept that New England employs and succeed in that system fail when they leave it and are asked to do more individually. Branch is a prime example. Brady wouldn't fail outside of it, but he wouldn't be nearly as successful either. He'd be an above average QB, but we certainly wouldn't be holding conversations about the GOAT. This thread is full of facts that you choose to ignore. That's your prerogative, but it does make you look foolish. I pity you, really. You have yourself built up so much in your mind, and it's all built on straw men. The high number of dumpoffs, the high YAC, these are facts. They haven't done anything of note. When did I say they didn't need Brady? Oh wait, I said the OPPOSITE. They've only achieved this kind of success with QBs that they've been able to develop. Brady and Cassell fit the mold. I don't know why Beli didn't draft a QB to develop in Cleveland. Go figure. Tom Brady is the biggest factor in the Pats dynasty, w/o him they don't have a SB this decade. He is and was that big for them. Belichick would be a defensive coordinator somewhere right now if Brady hadn't emerged. Some of us trying to understand the game a little better does not include you. Sorry. You take stats that fit your argument and ignore the others. I don't think you even care about what happens in the games, you just look at the ends and make your judgments about the means. Have you ever watched a game of football, or does the final score tell you everything you need to know? Some people do think Manning is better simply because of his stats. I don't. Other people think Brady is better simply because of the wins. I don't. I think Brady will be remembered a certain way, and I'm willing to ignore the fact that he's operating within a better suited system than Manning when I make my determination. Others aren't. Again, this isn't an apples to apples argument. You seem to like that angle when it suits you. It suits this argument as well, but I'm sure you'll dismiss it without cause. Again, you may want to actually look at the game a little deeper and not just at the box scores. No, Ben's team won the Super Bowl. He was a part of that. He didn't will them to victory. It's as easy to say James Harrison (or the refs) won the SB for them. If Ben hadn't had 2 drives stalled within the 5, they wouldn't have needed that defensive TD to build up that lead. Ben was ineffective in the 2nd half until that final drive. Yes, he played well on that last drive against a terrible and gassed Arizona defense, but he had ample opportunity all game to make sure that the game never stayed close. He couldn't do it. Sadly, that was still probably the best game I saw from him all year. Let's try the junc approach. This is absolutely laughable. I think you must be assuming that Brady gets to bring his offensive system with him. We're talking about Brady, in Indy, with Indy's coaching staff, right? And you think 2 - 3 SBs? Oh man, there may be no hope for you. Beep beep, here comes the short bus. Come on, enough with these wacky, softball arguments. Wow :drunk: No, I think Miami won the division because Chad Pennington ran an offense that was well suited to their success, due in large part to the Wildcat and because our defense fell apart down the line because of the injury to Jenkins. And no, I think New England started winning because Bledsoe wasn't the right QB for that offense and Brady was. Beli finally got a QB in there that he had developed within his system, and it was successful from the start. No coincidence there. The wheels on the bus are coming off, coming off, coming off... Which is one more game winning TD drive than Brady.
I agree with a lot of the points you've brought up in this thread but I feel like it's a stretch to call him one of the best quarterbacks of all time, and a system qb simultaneously. Every quaterback that has sustained success mostly does it in one "system". Would Joe Montana be as good if he weren't in the west coast offense, if he didn't have Jerry Rice? Who knows. Brady has been the common denominator all these years, much more so than any "system". I don't think it's a coincidence that guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, Deion Branch, Jabar Gaffney, etc. all have their best years with Brady. Don't forget that there were whispers that Moss was washed up and done before he came to the Pats and broke the single season touchdown receptions record.
I agree to an extent, but I also don't think we've ever seen a system as expertly run as the Patriots. What they accomplished should really never be done in a salary capped era in which individual players are emphasized over the team concept. And yet, here we are with a team that won 3 of 4 SB appearances this decade and made 5 AFC Championship games. I've been careful not to use the phrase "system QB" because I find it denigrating to his accomplishments and talents, but to suggest that he's led that team as though he's in a similar situation to Manning is, IMO, erroneous.
I am addressing everything being said no matter how nonsensical like trasjing Brady b/c he le an 80 yd drive whole dinking and dunking. So Brady hasn't led his team to a GW FG in the SB, it must be something any QB can do so why hasn't Peyton done it? Your whole argument here is trying to minimize what Brady has been able to accomplish. It's pretty weak. His OL was giving him all sorts of time against the Giants, right? He let Philly hang around? So he wasn't responsible for leading them to a GW FG but he was responsible for putting Philly away? which by the way the O did. That game was over when they went up 10 in the 4th qtr. Philly scored a meaningless late TD to make the score look closer. Brady would be great in ANY system and AGAIN name the other QBs that have won w/ BB in that system? You keep saying it's all about the system, so name me the other QBs in that system that have been great? if it's all about the system why has BB failed miserably w/o him? Branch was never great in NE and he's been hurt alot in Seattle. Poor example. He never had big time WRs until Moss came to NE so those other WRs which he made look better than they were didn't have alot of success after they left NE. Brady would be great in ANY system. Where are these facts? Please point them out b/c I don't see them. I see you opinion but I don't see facts. WHO CARES about dumpoffs? All that matters is he gets the job done especially in big spots. You do realize Brady's career YPA is 7.2, only half a yard lower than Manning, right? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one sentence it's Brady is a system player put in the right places by great coahcing then when I point out how those coaches have done nothing w/o him you say they need Brady- which is it? It's foolish to put Cassell in w/ Brady as if Cassell has ever done anything. he had a good year last year and still couldn't get NE to postseason despite an easier sched and being handed a team that was 16-0 the year before. What #s am I leaving out of the discussion? I have repeatedly said he's a great regular season QB- am I wrong? and I have repeatedly said he's not a good postseason QB when the games matter most- am I wrong? I dig deeper than the #s, if you look at his postseason #s they don't look bad, they even look close to Brady but it's about more than the individual #s. I have watched every postseason game both have played and I despise NE so I have rooted for Peyton every time and he always disappoints. He looks scared out there in big games, he makes boneheaded decisions, turns it over regularly, blames others when they lose- that's not a leader, that's not a truly great QB. He's a great regular season QB. Nice job trying to deflect from your weak argument. I have watched every postseason game, it's obvious you haven't. The Pitt D imploded in the 4th qtr and Ben and the O found themselves trailing w/ 2 1/2 to play at their own 22 yard line and he marched them down the field and threw one of the greatest passes in SB history to win the SB. To minimize what he did shows a lack of knowledge. You can criticize Ben for missing out on opportunities to stretch the Pitt lead but you don't criticize Peyton? You are all over the place. Now Chad ran an O that was well suited to their success(what that means I don't know). Always excuses w/ you. Chad made the playoffs using 2 different systems here, we sued henning's system in 2000 and it didn't work. Chad was the better QB, Chad helped a 1 win team win 11 games and a div title. The QB position was the difference in our teams last year. The wheels on the bus came off along time ago w/ your weak arguments where you don't even know which side you are on. Brady has 2 SB winning drives, last I check in the rule book if your team has more points than the other team then you win. It doesn't say you must win by scoring a TD.
Joe Montana won TWO Super Bowls WITHOUT Jerry Rice. In that same system and w/ Ric in his prime Steve Young could only manage one SB and that was thankas to Dallas imploding. he has only been in a amiliar situation to Manning for one year and in that year he led his team to 16-0 and his O to the most points in NFL history. Other than that he has never had weapons close to what Manning has had yet all he does is win.
Brady: 14-3 in playoffs with 3 rings. Manning: 7-8 with 1 ring. As for the numbers argument that the Manning fans have used for years: in the 1 year Brady had comparable WR's to what Manning has had for basically his entire career, he had a record setting season and threw for 50 touchdowns. It's scary to think of what Brady would've done if he hadn't spent the majority of his career throwing to stiffs like Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney or when he had it "good" Deion Branch and David Givens- two guys who ended up being nothing without Brady.
None of the guys in bold played defense. We all found out how bad the Tampa 2 was the hard way. Indy's defense has been poor to terrible the entire time Manning has been there.
The defense was good enough most years to give Peyton a chance. In '03 in the title game he gave the Pats offense the ball 4 extra times and they only scored 24 points. The problem was that he only put up 14 that game. In '04 he managed to score 3 fucking points against a defense that had Troy Brown playing as a nickle back. Again, not the defense there. In '05 he only put up 18 at home against Pittsburgh. Maybe if he signed more team friendly deals there would be more cap room for defensive help. Wasn't Dungy supposed to be a defensive wizz anyways? What about the last two one and dones against San Diego? When things have gone wrong it's been on him, not the defense.
They don't keep yards travelled through the air as a stat and getting the ball out on time and in a good position to your receiver helps YAC. In 17 playoff games w/ Brady the Pats D has allowed 18.2 PPG In 15 playoff games w/ Manning the Colts D has allowed 20.4 That is not much of a difference and it certainly doesn't make up for the medicore talent around Brady on O compared to the elite talent around Manning on O PLUS those defensive #s don't count how many Manning TOs led to points. The D's have been similar.
No, they have not. The defense that carried the Pats to their first 2 bowls was so far superior to anything Manning has ever had, we shouldn't even be having this discussion.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: I know somebody who rode the short bus. Why are you guys wasting your time with this guy? If he says it, it's fact. He knows all. Nobody in the world has the football intellect of this guy. He's argued for 9 pages on here and hasn't shown a single fucking thing to back up his statement except TEAM numbers. This is a poll on the best QUARTERBACK, not team success. If that's how you judge a QB, then Marino is fucked. His argument basically states that Teddy Brusci is better then Ray Lewis, after all, he has 3 rings to Ray's 1. Ray has been holding that Raven's D back for years. Put Brusci in that D and they win 11 Super Bowls. That about right Junc?
Big deal. Had Manning thrown as many passes as Brady threw in '07 in his career year in 2004 he would have thrown 57 TDs and 5300 yards. Brady had a great year in 2007 but Manning's 2004 was better.
YAC yardage is tracked and it's pretty easy to find out how many yards on average passes go thru the air. Brady's are typically much lower than Manning's.
