Junc this wasnt the greatest receiving corp of all time. Statistically they might have been, but the great stats had more to do with the playcalling and offensive tempo that ran teams off the field because they were snapping the play so quickly. I called them garbage 3 weeks ago and im calling them garbage again. The reason it was a success was because of Peyton Manning and his ability to operate at such a high speed. The moment they ran into a defense that could keep up with them, was the moment they fell apart. If they had an average QB back there, no one would be calling these WR's great. They got open because defenses couldnt get set and Peyton was threading the needle and operating at such a high speed that the NFL never had really seen. Stop acting like the receivers made Peyton.....Peyton made the receivers and offense as a whole.
The difference is that New England wouldn't have quit. Seattle wins the SB no matter what but the Patriots' wouldn't have completely embarrassed themselves and their fan bases on that field with that joke of a game. You give Manning those guys then you need to take away Harrison, Wayne, James, etc. You can't give him the core of one of the NFL's best defenses at the time and maintain one of the NFL's best offenses. You give him both and they win 5 straight. It's one of the other. Brady led a defensive oriented team and did exactly what he was asked, and led game winning drives on the biggest stages several times. You put Manning in that spot with the NFL's best offense and he chokes. Time and time again.
Jake was saying Peyton would have at least 3 rings if he was the Patriots QB. Not suggesting you give him all their great players. :lol: And I disagree that he would have 3. No doubt he would have more. At least 5 as he is not losing to Eli EVER. Probably more than 5 though, but of course that is all hypothetical.
I dont think Manning would have 3 rings if he was in New England because Manning would never allow himself to be smaller than the team itself. Sometimes less is more. Mannings strength of taking over teams and changing the culture and being the head coach might actually be his biggest weakness.
It's a good WR corps. Thomas would be a great WR on every team, he's a physical specimen and very good after the catch. Decker is a solid #2. Not as good as the numbers he put up with Peyton, but he's an NFL starter no question. Welker has thrived because he's played with great QBs, but there's no doubt he's a very good slot WR. Thomas at TE is another physical specimen. He would not look great on every team, but he's talented and a size mismatch against Ds. Peyton makes them look better, but you're underselling how good they are.
see, we can agree. the receivers were so overmatched yesterday it wasn't even funny. you could just see the confusion on their part how the plays they burned everyone else with all year simply weren't working against the Seahawks. outside of a few big plays there was no separation with from the defenders and no yards after the catch. there was no place for Manning to throw the ball. add to that he didn't have the time in the pocket he was used to, and you have all the elements in place for Manning to have a bad day. considering Brady is as just as much a stiff in the pocket as Manning, he would have gotten his ass kicked too last night. the only way to counter that would be with a QB like Kaepernick who can open up the passing lanes by forcing LB's to have to spy him or risk him running.
They really arent that good, the reason they got open all season was because Peyton turned it into a track meet and was snapping the ball with 21+ seconds on the playclock. If this was a regular offense, defenses would have been able to get set and would have been able to cover these guys but because of Peytons ability they weren't able to all year. Finally when they ran into a defense that could keep up with them and be ready for every snap, things fell apart and Manning couldnt steal 1st downs like he was doing all year. Honestly how many times all year did we see Manning snap the ball and the defense had no clue what position they were in? The fact is they arent that great of a receiving bunch, Demaryius Thomas isnt even a real #1, and was handled easily when the game was meaningful. A great receiving corp starts with having a real #1 receiver who can beat any corner/coverage in the game (Fitzgerald, Megatron, etc) Demaryius doesnt compare to those kind of guys.
junc, you sound like such a dick in this thread it is incomprehensible. are you kidding me? you want to talk like you know football while at the same time posting some reactionary thread where you try to claim that an overrated piece of shit like brady is leagues ahead of a guy that has always had consistent success at the qb position but hasnt won as much in the post season? you sound like a dick. no matter what peyton did against one of the best defenses to play in the superbowl period, his legacy will still forever be marked by a player that was able to come onto the field and produce offensive magic for the large majority of his career. it doesnt even make sense why you are talking up some cheating scumbag whos offensive prowess might only be because he had a literal leg up on the competition and how defenses around the league try to disguise their coverages from a cheating head coach. its laughable actually. tom brady has done great things with the patriots, but how much of that is due to his inside knowledge of the opposing defenses playbook? the whole cheating thing notwithstanding, peyton is a fucking general out there on the field. its RARE that he comes out and doesnt light the other defense up at least a little bit. you can claim that other people dont know the game all you want, but at the end of the day, when people that generally agree on most other points of football reference are arguing against you, and you yourslf are the lone purveyor of this nonsense, it might be time to evaluate yourself and why you (and the patriot fanboys that couldnt deal with one games worth of disappointment) are trying to validate a caught cheaters career. peyton manning will forever be a better qb than tom brady because he has never been caught cheating.
I hate not being able to explain myself but I don't have the patience to explain the DVOA concept. 0.0% is average, positive numbers is above average play, negative numbers is below average play. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods All credit for the image below goes to: Scott Kacsmar @FO_ScottKacsmar 48m Top playoff DVOA (passing only) since 1989: pic.twitter.com/MJb5BSkRAv Look at our QB Mark Sanchez! Joe Montana is incredible. That's absolutely incredible.
"The greatest of all time" is an opinion, so you can't really tell others who they can and can't select. To me, Manning will always be one of the top 3 of all time (Montana, Manning, Brady) and my personal favorite. In my opinion, when nit-picking those top 3, Montana was the product of a system designed by the great Bill Walsh, and Brady had Belichick (possibly the greatest coach of all time) and there's also the cheating thing. When the Pats won those super bowls, he was pretty much a game manager. Manning on the other hand was Montana and Bill Walsh in one. He was the mastermind behind his own offense, and his mental game is something I just put on another level. I can only think of one other QB, Steve Young, who can even be remotely put near this category. It is just something so unique that personally, I just like Manning better.
You are near a good point but missing it really. It's not just PM, it's most teams in the NFL. The Pats made this shift, the shift from the formula that got them 3 SBs, and they have 0 SBs since. Brady's bottom 4 pass attempt years, 2001,2003,2004, 2010. You want to know Brees' lowest pass attempt year in NO, 2009. Rodgers lowest pass attempt year, 2010. These teams had to pay their QBs because the market demanded they did or the QB could walk, and the rest of the team suffers. You build a team around the QB and passing offense, something IND routinely did, and you suffer the consequences in the playoffs when they run into multiple good teams. This isn't a good post, it's really arbitrary, but here's the list of QBs who have throw over 600 passes in a season since 2000: 2012 Stafford, no SB 2010 Manning, no SB 2012 Brees, no SB 2011 Stafford, no SB 2013 Manning, no SB 2010, 2011, 2007 Brees, no SB x3 2013 Ryan, no SB 2013 Brees, no SB 2012 Romo, no SB 2012 Brady, no SB 2008 Brees no SB 2013 Stafford, no SB 2013 Brady, no SB 2012 Luck, no SB 2002 Gannon, no SB 2008 Cutler, no SB 2012 Ryan, no SB 2013 Flacco, no SB 2006 Favre, no SB 2011 Brady, no SB 2002 Bledsoe, no SB 2005 Favre, no SB 2002 Brady, no SB. You know what you don't see on here, a SB winning team even though Flacco, Brees, Brady, and PM all show up on the list and have won SB for a team in the 2000s. It's not PM, it's the market for a QB. Basically teams are forced into paying their QB huge amount of money. If they don't, and try to keep the QB for cheap, there are going to be at least 3-5 teams who will pay that QB the big money. Before the rookie wage scale, it was even worse since these unknown QBs were getting MONSTER contracts for never playing a down in the NFL. It was ridiculous, but it's what the market demanded. Again, it's not just PM, the Patriots fell into the same trap. The Saints haven't learned, the Lions I have no clue what they are doing. 2011 Eli has the most attempts in a year in the 2000s and a SB win with 589. 2006 Peyton with 557 is next. 78 QBs have thrown over 550 passes in a season, 2 ended up on teams that won the SB. Do I think this proves anything no, but I do think it disproves your theory of PM being the reason IND played that style. It's a style other teams have followed too, even the great Bill B and Tom Brady after watching the Colts struggled that way. The real key is the market demands these monster contracts for QBs because the top QBs can hand you a playoff berth consistently (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees). The rest of the QBs shouldn't be in this ballpark, but they are, and hence their team loses depth and talent because of it.
Peyton's been a choker. It makes me sick how I've been hearing people try to say that its a team game and that this isn't all on Peyton. Yet when the broncos were setting records this year, people were talking about how great Peyton was and the broncos recievers, offensive line, and run game were relegated to a supporting cast role. Had Denver won 43-8 we would be hearing how the great Peyton manning shredded the Seahawks defense, how Peyton solidified his legacy. I don't mind him getting the individual praise when he plays good but he shouldn't get a pass when he plays like crap. Matt Schaub threw back to back to back pick 6's in 3 games and got crucified by both fans and the media to a point where fans were confronting him at his house. Peyton throws pick 6's in back to back Super Bowls and gets shut out this Super Bowl aside from a garbage time td and we get a second half of joe buck and Troy aikman giving him a free pass when with 2 weeks leading up to the game all we heard about was how great Peyton manning is. Seattles defense is great. But the saints gave them a tough game, the 49ers almost beat them. Both teams put up points in Seattle where they've only lost once since the 2012 season. The highest scoring offense of all time has 2 weeks to prepare to play the same team on a neutral field and puts up only 8 points. It was a typical Peyton manning choke job on the big stage. He was a choker at Tennessee, he was a choker with the colts 4 home playoff losses, a 41-0 loss to the jets, and a loss to an 8-8 team where he looked unstoppable during the regular season yet looked average in the playoffs and he's choked with the broncos. He's a top 10 qb of all time but this media driven slurpfest where people proclaim him as the greatest ever is a joke though.
over any jets QB in reg seasons? of course, we have never had a great QB and he's an all time great. In postseason? he's failed w/ much more talented teams than we ever had so I'm not sure about that. How were those situations similar? had Brady thrown a pick 6? had he fumbled to set up another TD? manning had 3 Tos leading directly to 17 pts in a 3 pt loss in double OT. It's awesome that he shattered Brady's meaningless record, how did that help him on Sunday? It's awesome he won another MVP, how did that help him Sunday? peyton's team had immensely more talent than NE and yet the teams split. If Peyton ever had Julian Edelman as his top WR he'd never make the playoffs let alone a title game. peyton had the most talent in the league around him, Brady had bottom 3rd weapons. I never called them the greatest receiving corps in history but they were the best in the league this year w/o a doubt. It's amazing how peyton makes all these players until it matters most then it's everyone else's fault but peyton:lol: which is crazy considering Indy was much more talented in those years, the difference was at QB. john Fox has reached a SB w/o peyton, go see what BB has done w/o Brady. I love when folks that don't know a thing about this game have to curse at me b/c they have nothing else.
junc is telling us he would rather have Sanchez in the post-season over Peyton Manning. Just go ahead and say it junc.
If Mark had all that talent I'm sure he'd have a SB or 2 by now. Peyton is a poor postseason player, he had 2 great AFC playoff games but a clunker is always just around the corner. There is no reason why he should have a losing record w/ the incredible talent he has played w/ since day 1.
saying you sound like a dick is NOT cursing at you, in any way at all. but i love the little 'you dont know a think about this game' jab you have to throw in any time somebody dissents your wild opinions... but ive spent a lot of time around the game of football from playing to covering my college team for a local tv station. i think i know at least a little bit about the game. regardless, i think its pretty hilarious that, while peyton manning gets held to this standard of where if he doesnt perform in a game where his entire team is outmatched from the start he is a failure, but at the same time defend mark sanchez because of the whole team aspect of the game not to derail this into another sanchez thing, because generally we agree that mark is not as bad as his stat lines and was a product of poor coaching rather than not having the talent, but you cant at the same time defend sanchez and rail peyton when it was the broncos as a team that came out and laid an egg on offense, defense, and special teams. not to mention the coaching in that game that never adjusted or took any defensive risks but yeh those receivers are something special arent they? not getting open against single man coverage all night...
