OP has now compared Peyton Manning to Tebow and Sanchez legitimately on numerous occasions in this thread. This is the level of football debate we are dealing with here. Dude, give it a rest, aren't you finding that almost every poster, all of whom are pretty big football fans, doesn't agree with you at all? That should be enough for you to step back and re-examine some of the nonsense you are spewing. You aren't smarter than most of us, if any. That can easily be ascertained just by your writing and how you organize your thoughts. It comes across more trollish than intelligent. Your football opinions would be highly discredited by former and current players, former and current analysts and writers, and basically every analytics guy on the planet. You're just not making sense.
He's played in 4 title games and won 3 of them. That's not a bad record for playing in the biggest game in your conference. 1-2 in the SB. Could be worse. The point i'm trying to make is that we give Mark a lot of credit for being in 2 title games and losing both. But we disregard Peyton doing the same thing and actually winning a majority of the games. I'm not absolving him of the blame. I just don't like when all the blame is placed on a particular player. It's a team sport. The Bronco's didn't lose to the Seahawks just because of Peyton Manning. They were beat in basically every area of the game. The pick to Porter was a choke job, can't argue that. Terrible pick at a terrible spot. But his overall performance in that game wasn't bad. To make it all about one throw isn't fair. Yes, thats what he'll be remembered for in that game but, that one throw isn't indicative of how he played overall. They weren't a perfect D but they were strong against the pass and poor against the run and I don't think Peyton calls the plays. That's made up by the media. He audibles a lot and adjusts to the D he see's but he's not calling the plays. His teams could save money by not having an Offensive Coordinator if thats the case.
still only 2 more w/ boatloads more talent to work with. I back Mark obviously, I don't ever call him great or anything like that. I grade a guy like Mark much differently than an all time great like Peyton. If I thought mark was in that category I would be much harsher on him. I think sometimes people think that I think manning stinks, that's not the case at all. Obviously he's an all time great, top 10 all time. I am arguing against him being in the discussion for best of all time. I don't see him as a top 5 all time. Just my opinion which I give a million reasons for. I don't care if he was perfect prior to the Porter pick, when you have a play like that it means more than anything he did to that point. He gets all the credit for calling plays when they win just like he gets all the credit period. What I hate is seeing all the teammates and coaches thrown under the bus as if the great Peyton Manning had nothing to do w/ all those losses. I do appreciate your opinions though, it's nice to discuss this w/ someone who has the opposite view and not see it deteriorate into a romper room insult party so I thank you for that.
keep making stuff up, at some point you may believe what you are posting. Interestingly enough I am lucky enough to discuss the game w/ current/former players/coaches which have helped to shape my opinions of the game. You'd be surprised what guys think behind the scenes.
I wouldn't take Peyton's career and resume over Brady's or Montana's. But I think as a player he is right up there with anyone.
I'll never insult anyone unless they start it. I appreciate everyone's views. You take the less then popular opinion on Mark but I respect it. It makes me think and look at things from the other side. I'll never discredit him. I just don't think he's good. I've been wrong many times. I think Peyton is a victim of his own success. We talk about things like him calling plays, he's no different then any other QB. Just better then most. He's not the best of all time. It least not in my book. I've never really sat down and ranked what my list would be. But i'd agree Peyton wouldn't be first. I don't think you think Peyton stinks. That's crazy. But I think people treat him different then other QB's.
I think that's fair. the best should be judged the harshest as we expect the most from them. if Brady didn't start out 10-0 in postseason he'd be getting judged much harsher right now. Remember what they were saying about Elway prior to the last 2 years?
That's true but Elway won his two SB's in his last 2 years. Lets say for argument sake Peyton and the Broncos win it all next year. His 2 SB's (which match Elway) would be spread out far apart with some terrible losses thrown in between. Does he still get the recognition Elway gets as a clutch performer? Or do people still say he should have been better? It's hypothetical but i'm not sure he does. I think Elway winning the 2 back to back right at the end of his career make people forget about all the tough losses before that. Peyton has heartbreaking losses before his first and after.
I think Elway was underrated before the 2 SB wins and overrated after. If Peyton ends w/ 2 SBs or has a spectacular game in one that could change things a little. it's going to be harder when you keep adding another year on his age.
junc, I don't think people have an issue with your placing Manning lower on the list of all time greats than other QB's so much as your reasoning. If judged on his overall career, with no additional weight given to the playoffs, Manning is one of the top QB's of all time. you may think he should have won more, but going to three Super Bowls is a rare feat and nothing to minimize, even if he lost two of them. The Seahawks game wasn't his fault, and it is unreasonable to blame him for it. the Broncos team was beaten badly in every facet of the game, it wasn't simply Manning's poor play that brought the team down. and the Saints game, that was as even a Super Bowl as there has ever been. one team started 14-0 and the other 13-0. it is ludicrous to claim either one of those teams was better than the other and "should" have won the game. that isn't to absolve Manning of the throw that sealed the game, but honestly, look at that play. that's a play he and Wayne had probably run hundreds of times, and on that play Wayne hardly breaks his route and hardly makes a break for Porter. what in the world was he doing on that play? that was equally on Wayne. the thing hurting Manning the most, IMO, is that he doesn't seem to have even one playoff win that is comparable to his regular season success. where is that definitive dominant Manning playoff game? doesn't seem to exist. does he even have a definitive playoff moment or drive the way Brady can lay claim to two Super Bowl game winning scoring drives?
I see most people agreeing with this. Montana passes the numbers test where he routinely places above PM and TB in the playoff numbers and the eyeball test to people who watched him. He has the regular season success to match the postseason play too The signature drive for Peyton is the game winning drive in the 2006 AFC championship game. The signature drive for Brady is the 2001 SB game winning drive. I don't think those selections can be argued.
not to sound like I am splitting hairs, because that is likely his best playoff moment, but that isn't a particularly historic drive or even a play (which I believe was a hand off) that is really a defining playoff winning moment for Manning. Montana has "the catch," he has the game winning drive and TD to Taylor, he has the biggest blowout in Super Bowl history. Brady has two game winning drives as time expires. Eli has a Super Bowl winning TD throw and two memorable completions to set up game winners. John Elway has the upset against the defending Super Bowl champs, and getting propellered on a play he didn't even score on but represents his drive to finally get that Super Bowl win after 4 losses. Roethlesberger has a SB winning TD drive and throw. That's what I am getting at. Sure, Manning has had playoff success, but that drive isn't the same defining moment as above. it may be his signature moment, but it isn't an NFL historical drive.
Mannings defining moment, I hate to say it, buts its this: Fair or unfair that is the play Peyton will be remembered for. Thats the difference in his career right now. If he finished the drive, who knows what happens, but he didnt.
Would say the whole second half would be his moment then? 32 points including an 80 yard GW TD drive? Yeah it ended in a run, but like you mentioned, Eli's second one did too. Brady's ended in FG and Peyton's drive was further than both of Brady's you are talking about it. The run negates it that much? Under the circumstances you are describing, it seems like out of recent QBs only Eli and Big Ben qualify. Brady hasn't led a game winning TD with under 2 minutes in the playoffs and PM only has the one you don't think qualifies.
From what I've seen, athletes when they retire more often than not are remembered for their successes than their failures. So in the moment, it may seem like people will remember Peyton for that, but it really won't be like that.
It may not be definitive, but Peyton torched a historically great pass D in the 2009 AFC CG (look at the numbers, we were, only 8 passing TDs yielded all season and 150 yards allowed per game, that's insane in this era). If Peyton has Sean Payton instead of Jim Caldwell as his coach in the SB, does he lose? It's easy to point to the pick-6, but why on earth were the Colts losing 24-17 late when their QB was having an awesome game? Again, TEAMS WIN PLAYOFF GAMES, NOT QBS. Can Brady claim to have torched a pass D as good as the 2009 Jets in the playoffs? No chance. Nothing even close. How did he do in the playoffs against a worse version of that D the following year? Brady's claim to scoring 13 points against the Rams is meaningless to me and is not given much added weight because 3 of them came near the end. That is a subpar to mediocre QB performance that gets you beat 9 times out of 10 against a good offense. Name one great throw he even made on that drive? Dumpoffs to the RBs. At least Eli, for as average a player as he is, can make claim to some phenomenal throws on his late scoring drives.
Here, I'll spoil it for you: they still lose. Most likely in regulation because there is no chance that the Saints aren't driving it at will against a bad Colts D for an easy game-ending FG in the final 2 minutes. Even under the circumstances in which that Colts D somehow stops the Saints offense in regulation, we are going to OT and it's Sean Payton coaching against Jim Caldwell. My guess is Caldwell would've won the coin toss and elected to defer
Thats not a lock though, Indys kicked missing that kick to put the Colts up 20-16 was big though. (it was a long kick) What sucks the most is the Saints had like the 25th ranked defense and compiled a much better game than the Jets 1st ranked defense. The biggest reason why though is because Peyton did not play at the same level as he did against the Jets, he just didn't.
NO scored on all 3 second half possession. Drew Brees threw 39 passes and completed 80% of them! The game shifted on two things: a) 4th and 1 at the GL, Sean Payton goes for it and NO doesn't get it. Back up on their own GL with 1:49 left, IND runs for 4, runs for 5, and has a 3rd and 1 with 46 seconds left. They run again obviously and don't get it. NO forces a punt, gets the ball on their own 48 with 35 seconds left, get into FG range and grab 3 before the half to make it 10-6. Great coaching, going for the TD in the EZ forced the bad field position for IND, forcing them to take the ball out of Peyton's hands, eventually getting FG he passed on from the 1 yard line. b) the onside kick to start the second half and the following TD. NO seemed out of the game, but because of those two drives they scored 10 unanswered points Peyton/Wayne made a crucial mistake, but that string of excellence from NO changed a game where NO looked out of it, to one where they were back in it. Wanna hear a crazy stat, Drew Brees had one incompletion in the second half. He had 7 total, he had 2 incompletions from the 2nd quarter onwards (not including the one spike to stop the clock). The missed FG hurt because it put IND in a TD hole, not a FG hole. I don't think if down 4 NO scored a TD, Payton would have gone for 2 to try and make it a 4 point game.
