You do know Mo and Marvin were not brought here by parcells, right? Abraham was drafted by Al groh as were Coles, Chad, Becht and ellis. Ohhh so Parcells gets credit for "coaching up" guys that were her previously but Herm doesn't get any credit for coaching up guys that he inherited:rofl: I mentioned Sowell in the 2004 starters. You do realize Richie Anderson barely played wehn BP was here, right? He signed an old Keith Byars who killed us in the title game w/ that fumble b/c he didn't like Richie at the time.
For someone who ignores me you are always talking about me. I love when someone like you agrees w/ a post like that b/c that post is almost 100% incorrect.
Yeah but us missing the playoffs in 1999/2000 had little to do with who was coaching the team. 1999: As we all know, Vinny went down with a torn achilles in the 2nd quarter of our season opener against New England. Despite the defense not playing particularly well for much of the early part of that season, the main reason, by far, for our 1-6 start was the lack of stability at the quarterback position. The failed Rick Mirer experiment cost us dearly. Once we found and committed ourselves to Ray Lucas, we became one of the hottest teams in the league. We won 7 out of our last 9 games and our last 4 in a row. 2000: If John Hall makes a (40 yard?) FG against detriot (AT HOME) in the second to last game of the season, we make the playoffs under Al Groh at 10-6. If John Hall misses a (53 yard?) FG (In Oakland) to end the last game of the season, we miss the playoffs under Herm Edwards at 9-7. ALSO, Vinny Testeverde threw an incredible number of game-changing, momentum-altering interceptions that year (particularly in the Baltimore disaster to close the year) that had nothing to do with who was coaching him and everything to do with the fact that he was a human turnover machine.
Good point, but in fairness both Walton and Edwards presided over teams in general decline, for the most part. The difference is the core of the team for Walton was older and not replaced by the FO. Bad as Bradway was, they did make some moves to shore up the roster like bringing in Pete Kendall. Herm was lucky that people like Ellis were around to make up the core of the team, while for Walton he watched the Sack Exchange get injured and retire. The team's best move in the Walton era was drafting Toon, but that was not enough, particularly with Walker's ailments and the like, to stem the tide. Meanwhile the people Edwards brought in, like Donnie Abraham and Damien Robinson, were disappointments.
1999:Vinny went down and the decision to go to Rick Mirer cost us our season, that's coaching/GM Bill Parcells for a)bringing him in and b)playing him as long as he did. 2000: if John Hall makes that FG we go to OVERTIME and aren't guaranteed a win. We started 6-1 largely b/c of great comebacks where we had to scarp the gameplan and Vinny called plays. We missed the playoffs despite that 6-1 start by losing 6 of our last 9 games inclduing our last 3. That's coaching. W/ laregly the same team a year later we made the playoffs by winning 7 of our last 10. Vinny did throw a ton of INTs that year, let;s look at how the '00 and '01 coaching staffs handled Vinny. In '00 despite missing the previous year Vinny threw an average of 39 times per game(rememebr he only played one play in the Pitt game). In '01 Vinny averaged 28 attempts a game. In 15 games in 2000 he threw 149 more passes than he did in 2001 when he played 16 games. That's coaching.
Walton 1983 - 7-9 Todd is sacked 42 times and throws 26 INTs, Salaam traded 1984 - 7-9 O'Brien's rookie year, Shuler is only WR that plays all 16 games, 22 sacks for Gastineau 1985 - 11-5 lost to Patriots in wild card game (O'Brien + Toon + Walker + sack exchange = playoffs) 1986 - 10-6 team started 10-1, whole sack exchange hurt, double OT loss to Browns 1987 - 6-9 strike shortened season, O'Brien sacked 50 times, Jets lose the turnover battle, defense can't hold teams under 100 rushing yards 1988 - 8-7-1 - Klecko plays for the Colts, Gastineau retires midseason, Lyons moves outside to DE 1989 - 4-12 - no sack exchange The team looked great in 1985 and even better in 1986 before the injuries started. I would have liked to see what this team could have done against the Broncos or even the Giants that year. 1988 could have been a playoff year if Gastineau didn't ditch the team. In 1983-84 the offense was the problem. The offensive line only had a couple good years under Walton. The defense fell apart in 1987 and 1989. ----------------- When Salaam retired, Klecko had to cover the DT spot giving up to opportunity to contribute 18-20 sacks from the defensive end position. I guess that wouldn't have been all to important. ----------------- 1998 - 12-4 turnovers cost the team the AFC chapionship against Elway 1999 - 8-8 Vinny goes down, team lets Mirer put them in a hole. Ray freakin Lukas almost got them into the playoffs 2000 - 9-7 Groh took over as coach, Keyshawn was traded away, Vinny gets sacked 20 times and throws 25 picks that year but lights up one of the greatest defenses of all time for 481 passing yards but Jets lose the game and their playoff hopes ------------------- If Cox and Phifer were so overpaid, then why did they both earn SB rings the year they were cut?
One other point about 1999. yeah we finished 8-8 but the 2 most important games during that hot streak we lost- at Indy and then getting humiliated by a medicore Giant team the next week. The pressure was off as we were out of playoff contention after those losses and we beat some teams playing awful football down the stretch. Miami twice- they finished losing 6 of 8 games Dallas-lost 3 of their last 5 and finished just 8-8 to make playoffs Seattle- lost 5 of last 6 games The only reason any of those 3 teams won a playoff game was b/c 2 played each other- Mia and Sea, the next week Miami lost 62-7 to a team that didn't even make the SB.
1999 Mirer was the goat. That bum cost us the playoffs. 2000 This team really missed Keyhawn. If we kept him playoffs would have been a lock.
Yes, a hall of fame coach deserves credit for the growth of players under his watch. I will give Herm credit for teaching his players not to make turnovers but I am not really sure that his coaching helped players improve much. He couldn't figure out what to do with Farrior who had an excellent career with the Steelers after Herm got rid of him. Richie Anderson was in Parcell's dog house for whatever reason (fumbles, drops?). Whatever the reason for the tough love, Anderson emerged as a very good player for this team.
1983:Salaam was not a major piece, he was the least important of the sack exchange players. Todd wasn't good in '81 or '82 either. He was better than '83 but he had the same player to work w/ that led them to two playoff apps. 1984: O'Brien was a 2nd year player getting his 1st chance to play. They started 6-2 w/ Pat Ryan and then lost 3 straight before going to kenny and finishing up 7-9 after that 6-2 start. Coaching doesn't play a role in that? Walker player 12 games 1985: 11-5, lost a HOME playoff game. 1986: started 10-1, finished 0-5, blew playoff game at Cle 1987: came out of strike 3-2, went 3-7 to finish the year 1988: nice year 1989: completely lost the team, go 4-12 and gets fired. He coached 111 games, Klecko played 62 of them Gastineau 80 Lyons played 96 Walton was more invovled w/ the offense so if that was the problem in '83 and '84 he gets his share of the blame. 1999 Lucas didn't almost get us to the playoffs, we finished a game back but we were out of contention the final few weeks and one of the nbiggest reason Ray looked like an NFL QB was b/c of keyshawn who was traded following that season. 2000: we were down big nearly every game, if not for Vinny calling plays in those miracle comebacks we wouldn't have won near 9 games. Unfortunately we kept putting oursleves in those holes and couldn't keep climbinh out- that's coaching. Bryan Cox was given a new deal before Parcells left, one he knew we couldn't keep him w/ b/c of the cap situation. B/c we couldn't afford to keep those players b/c of the cap problems brought to us by BP doesn't mean those players couldn't play. Wr didn't want to lose Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman or Ryan Young but we had no choice there either and the biggest reason Cox and Phifer won SB rings was b/c of the QB not b/c of them.
No offensive line and the legendary Johnny Lam Jones had more to do with the record than Joe Walton's coaching. Until O'Brien took over the team in 1985 he didn't have much of a QB either. Herm the genius on the other hand had the best OL in the league (or at least top 5), Cherbet, Coles, Moss, Richie Anderson, and Curtis Martin to catch the ball, and a choice of Vinny Testaverde or Chad Pennigton. When the deck is stacked like that, what does coaching have to do with success?
Who inserted that QB in the game for 6 weeks? Groh traded him and we wouldn't have had that 2000 draft haul if not for that deal.
I understand your point but, the bottom line is, those two games were only "important" because we had won enough games to make them "important". Yeah, that loss to the Giants was a huge dissapointment though. I don't find this particularly relevant or convincing. You get credit for the games you win and criticism for the games you lose Miami finished the season losing 6 of 8 but we gave them two of those 6 losses. So without us, they may have won 4 of 8. Dallas lost 3 of their last 5 but we gave them one of those losses. So without us, they may have WON 3 of their last 5. Again, teams get credit for the games they win and criticism for the games they lose.
They made the title game the year before w/ Lam Jones, we had Fields, Powell, Alexander and Ward start all but 4 games. In 2002 we were incredibly banged up early in the year to get off to that 1-4/2-5 start and Herm kept that team together. He never lost his QB for most of the year like Herm did multiple years. Chrebet was a solid #2 WR forced to be a #1 for us, he had Coles playing well for ONE year before he left via FA, Anderson was nothing more than an average player, Curtis was Curtis but Freeman and Hector were pretty damn good too, he had Moss at his peak healthy for one season. In 2004 despite losing Chad w/ the rotator cuff injury, despite losing their best defensive player he also had to deal w/ Moss playig hurt and not producing yet he led them w/in a kick of the title game.
Look at the injuries to Fields and Powell as well as when they retired. The OL during the Walton / O'Brien years was not the OL the Jets had from 1980-1982. The best players on the line got old and they got injured. Spin it all you want but Walton was a pretty good coach who took over an aging team. Herm is an assclown that inherited the house that Parcells built.
People overlook this a lot because Keyshawn was controversial, plus the Jets beat Tampa Bay in his fourth game there so everyone said we didn't need him but we did. He was money in the red zone, all those games we won in 1998 and 1999, when we needed a TD or a first down Keyshawn was the guy. He blocked downfield and despite being opinionated was a great player for us. I'll argue that he wasn't adequately replaced until we got Braylon Edwards last season and I don't think Braylon is as good as Keyshawn was, he drops too many passes. Also, I didn't see this mentioned, but Klecko moved from DE to DT after major knee surgery he had in 1982 that ended his season and took away some of his quickness. When Bud Carson arrived and put in the 3-4 Klecko became a NT and came up with that diagonal way to line up, which is how he made the Pro Bowl at three different positions. He jumped offsides a bit too much but usually made up for it.
