Statistics ... Statistics can be manipulated to suit almost any debate, particularly in sports. Lets try these statistics. Since the Merger how many Division Championships or Super Bowls for the Lions, Cardinals or Jets. How many afc east titles for the New York Jets. Keep your statistics. Pre Parcells we were a laughing stock and to the rest of the country we are still a joke and get no respect. This has gotten off track. We seem to have a capable front office at this time and we should be happy about it. Vilma goes nowhere.
Even with a good line he would have to take on and shed 300 lbs OGs in this scheme. Line or no line the 230 lbs Vilma is just not physical enough to do consistently for 16 or more in a season.
Do you know that for sure? other than his rookie season his line has always been garbage, I'd rather not make a needlessly gamble until we know that with some kind of line he can be dominant again, and I remember a guy that has been a perennial pro bowler in Zach Thomas who is smaller than Vilma who was able to do well in the 3-4. I've said it before and I'll say it again without a dline especially a capable NT you don't have a 3-4 defense
exactly. The people who like to pin this on the fact that we have no NT make it seem like the linebacker is never supposed to be blocked. If that was the case then anyone could play ILB...oh poor baby vilma, he has to take on blocks:rofl: .....and for the last time....the people like myself who would like this trade arent saying Vilma sucks...we are saying that he doesnt fit the system...and that is not opinion, it is fact.
Let me be more clear. He can do it but not at the level he would in a 4-3. To quote Champ he's just "average" in a 3-4. The expectations from JV can not be the same in a 3-4 as it is in the 4-3.
Taking on blocks once in a while is one thing, seeing the opponent's oline all coming at him while our dline got stampeded is another thing, no LB in Vilma's position can do anything in that spot or do you actually think that 80 year old Kimo, Drob for most of the year was on his back and Ellis who played like he was 50 actually gave him any chance to make a play this year, if you think that you definitely need to share your stuff with the rest of us.
Your assessment on how the D-line played last year, makes me realize that your expectations are out of wack. Kimo was awful; there's no denying that. D-Rob started terribly. It's clear that playing the 3-4 NT is not the best position for him. Howver, he got better every game to the point that he was pretty good towards the end of the season. His ability to play nose and RDE provided us with much needed versatility. Ellis IMO was one of the most consistent players on defense along with Rhodes and Barton (honorable mention goes to Dyson). If you are holding your breath expecting double digit sacks and a ton of TFLs from your 3-4 D-linemen, then you are going to get blue in the face cause it ain't going to happen.
The only way we had a prayer to stop anything last year was to blitz every single down, you are right Drob did improve from hideously bad to below average, that still will not cut it, Ellis was our best dlineman last year and was a nonfactor for most of the year, you are right I don't expect double digit sacks from 3-4 lineman that isn't their job in that role, but they are supposed to be able to be at least equal to the oline which never happen, and we shouldn't have to send everyone to be able to stop a run, just because they improve towards the end of the year doesn't mean they were actually good
I'm not even saying that, even though I agree...he doesn't fit the system. All I'm saying is in this rumor, the value being offered for Vilma is the #18 pick and Betts. In my opinion that is fair value. LBs are typically less valued positions, and rarely go in the top 10, so the proposal of Vilma for #6 straight up is just insane. In this deal we'd get good value for a player that isn't ideal for the system. While not a proponent of going out and actively pursuing a trade for Vilma, if a deal like this were presented, I think it should be taken. It's as simple as that.
I hearya. theres actually some people who think theres noone in the NFL that would be equal value for Vilma
Ellis, Barton, and Thomas were pretty stout all year and like I said Robertson got better as the year went on. Teams ran mostly at our right, their left side where Kimo, Vilma and Hobson/Chatham palyed. Opponents had the best success running at the bubble between our NT and RDE occupied by Vilma or off tackle at Hobson, who did a poor job at containment all year.
Thomas benefited from us blitzing nearly every play and our run D was dreadful against every decent team on our schedule, really only "stout" against the Lions and teams similar on our schedule, and as for the bubble between our NT and RDE it was more like a canyon if we didn't blitz
Fixed it for ya, I am not saying Vilma was great, but don't try to feed me that our dline was anything less than below average, our dline getting absolutely dominated in the playoffs is evidence enough that this is the biggest weakness on our team, once that is fixed then we'll see who is our weak link
Vilma player really well when we had a 3/4 NT, Ferguson playing in a 4/3 so that Vilma had both a 3/4NT and a 4/3 Tackle in front of him. Hard to believe that's the plan going forward since they moved BT to LB and got rid of Abe.
Ah, and our eyes and observations are always 110% correct. It's that kind of logic that had me laughing at people like Bill Shanks when statistics blew up recently in baseball. They choose to ignore the good in in-depth stats simply because they don't use or understand them. I'm as excited as anyone can be for the statistical revolution in baseball, and now it's coming up in football (check out Football Prospectus). Why are stats in football just starting to grow? Fans neither have any clue what stats matter, HOW they matter, or even what goes into some of them (who gets QB rating?). The info is coming out, and hopefully people will start to see it. Fact is, observation is a tool. Stats are a tools. The more tools you have when you analyze a guy...the better no?
He went from playing with a good to great dline in front of him to a terrible dline the last 2 years, well we haven't seen what he'd do in the between ground
If you judge them as a whole I guess below average is a fair assessment. However, if you take out Kimo completely and Robertson's play early on, they were pretty solid. We didn't play well in the playoffs but I wouldn't say our D-line was dominated. Lastly, I'm not saying Vilma was the weak link. In fact, I've been pretty clear that Kimo is the weak link on our defense. All I've stressed is that Vilma becomes just a average player in this defense whereas he's a star in a 4-3 base. I didn't think anyone could argue that but you obviously feel differently. Most analysts and posters felt Vilma would struggle before the season even began, before realizing Kimo was hot trash and Robertson would struggle to adapt. Vilma's season played out pretty much how I and many others had anticipated. Honestly I thought his play would be even worse. If we upgrade at RDE, I can see him having a better year next year but still not like his 1st 2 years. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion.
