I didn't say how many teams have good OL's I said how many have Ol waiting in the wings to go in w/ little dropoff from the starter? Not many. If you think that's the only player we had to back up those positions you are nuts. Moore is pretty good and getting better and why is it luck when things turn out well? From '02-'05 BB and NE took ONE OL(Koppen), overall from '00-'05(6 drafts) they took 5 OL. The Jets in 5 drafts took 5 OL. Pitt from '00-'03 took 4 OL. Philly from '00-'03 took 4 OL. Indy from '00-'03 took 5 OL Where are these great teams slecting multiple OL every year? There are other ways besides the draft to find OL such as the way we found Brandon Moore.
Those teams had injuries on the Oline and there was very little dropoff. Good Olines have good depth, period. Lineman get hurt and tired often. When looking at the line, D and O, you have to go past the starters. What makes those Olines good has as much to do with the depth at the positions as it does the starters. Goodwin was the official bakup for both Guard positions and center. Yes I am nuts for looking at the official depth chart. Because Moore was an UDRA. It is always luck that those work out. Depending on your UDRAs to find starters isn't exactly the smartest idea. It doesn't bother you that the only starters the old regime managed to find an average Guard as an UDRA, and an average in OT in JOnes in 5 years. And 2 of the OL the Jets took were in the 7th round (one of which was cut, the other was hurt all last year). List the rounds that those teams drafted the Lineman. The great majority in the first day. Bradway/Herm never drafted an OL before the 4th round (I believe Goodwin and Jones were 4th rounders). Last year when it was clear the line was getting older and McKenzie just left, they did not draft one OL. Of course there is other ways to build the line, but they never did anything. It was all afterthought. Drafting in the last rounds exclusively, and depending on getting lucky in the UDRA. Kendall fell out of the sky, they were going to start Goodwin. Gragg was signed at the end of the FA period as an after thought, and he was clearly over the hill. Barely trying to keep Thomas. And McKenzie never should have gotten close to the FA period. He should have been signed LONG before FA. Then filling up the dpeth chart with Morley, Snell, Missant, Katnick. The OL was clearly not a priority for them, it was always "Oh yeah, maybe we should do something about the line too." Championship teams make the line, the whole line (depth included) a top priority.
But you told me they draft Ol every year, what happened to that? By the way, when BP came here in '97 we had 11 or 12 picks and guess how many OL he took? ONE, a guy who never made the team. He took over a team that won 4 games in 2 years and didn't take an OL. I don't dispute that, I dispute him being the ONLY player to back up those spots. It's not unusual to have 1 player be the first backup at multiple positions it is unusual to have 1 player be the ONLY backup at 3 positions. The old regime found 5 quality starters- Kareem, Szott, Smith, Moore, Kendall and Jones were/are quality straters. That's damn good in 5 years. Doesn't matter, you told me all these teams took OL every year, I proved they didn't. Not many 1st rd picks among the bunch, NE only has 1 1st round starter while they also have a 5, 7 and undrafted. Like signing vet FAs like Kendall & Szott Like signing UDFAs like Moore? Like Drafting players like Kareem and Jones? yeah they never did a thing to help the OL, it was magic that it was always among the best in the league until last year.
Then tell me, beyond Goodwin who was there? Kareem they let go with little or no effort to keep him like Thomas. Kendall fell into their laps, they go lucky. Before Kendall signed Goodwin was going to start. UDRA panning out has more to do with luck than anything else. Waiting for players to fall out of the sky is not making it a priority. Actually 5 OL over 5 years averages out to one a year. But most of those drafted cam on day one, 1-3 rouders, with a few exceptions to the rule. While the old regime, the opposite was true. They depended exclusively on late rounders and UDRAs, putting no high round talent into the line. Last year when Kareem left and the line was obviously getting older, they drafted NO ONE. How is that not neglect? Because everything they did was an after thought. No high draft selections. Hoping players like Kendall fall out of the sky. Hoping that UDFAs like Moore pan out. Banking on 4th round TE-OL conversion projects like Jones working out. Filling out the depth chart with UDRAs Missant, Katnick, and Snell. Trading for Morley when there were obvious depth problems, even though he couldn't even make it at GB. Signing Gragg, who was clearly done, as a bandaid. It was not given any serious consideration, it was all last minute and no long term planning. If the depth was decent in any way, the FO would not have been forced to use 2 1st rounders this year. There would have been younger players capable of starting in the background waiting when the starters got too old. But there weren't. Even with the 2 1st rounders there are questions still. No sure RT, and no decent Guard backup to one day take over for Kendall. All of that is a direct result of the line and depth being neglected. If you think all that translates into the old regime making the line a priority and not neglecting it, then there is no convincing you otherwise.
They had a couple of guys on the PS reayd to call up int he event we lost two OL in 1 game. They got FIVE quality starters, they let go of Thomas and Kareem b/c they were OVERPAID. They made wise decisisons to let them go. They had Jones and Cavka for the OT position plus they signed Gragg. Cavka got hurt, the bottom lione is they still found 5 quality starters in 5 years. magically in 4 of the 5 years it all worked out. Isn't that amazing? There are other places of need for the draft and we drafted different players but we didn't neglect the OL. We lost 2 older OL and we replaced them w/ draft picks. We loaded up to make a run last year and chose to spend on other areas, for the first time it didnt' work out. You can't draft 2-3 OL every year espcially when we had good returning vets and some young guys they liked.
The Dolphins signed him. He's injury prone though, he'd only be a depth signing and I'm not sure how great the actual depth would be.
Nevermind. I could reply but I would just be repeating what I wrote before. We are just saying the same things over and over again. It is obvious we just see things differently. I will just agree to disagree, and I don't want to hijack this thread. It is always good to have a good friendly debate.
This OL has alot of athleticism and alot of tough/smart players. It'll be interesting to see what kind of scheme Mangini Implements. This OL would be ideal for a zone type scheme as we have guys who are very quick off the snap and who can get to the second level in a hurry. Seems like a no brainer but lets keep in mind that Mangini is a Parcells/ BB descendent and I dont recall either ever using a zone scheme..so we shall see. As for the performance of next year's OL...expect major growing pains. We are replacing 2 major spots on the line w/ rookies and have poetntially another starter going into only his 2nd year as a contributor. This will result in cohesion/inexperience issues. I fully expect Ferguson and Mangold to be labled as busts in the early going b/c of many Jet fans impatience. Both will struggle early.. as they get used to new teammates, and the speed of the NFL. They both eventually will be great players, but dont expect pro bowl performances. Now onto the former FO/OL issue... They brought in some decent talent at the OT position. McKenzie and Jones are both decent starters in this league and anytime you get that result from later round picks, you are doing something right. Cavka was a guy w/ alot of upside as a prospect, and his development is still pending...that wasnt a horrid pick for a 6th rounder. W/ all that said, I have no problem w/ the addressing of the OT position. What i have a problem w/ is the following: We have not drafted a guard since Dave Yovanovits.. Now it is true that we found a gem in Brandon Moore and Issac Snell looks like he will be a keeper as well..but why the last regime and even the current one refuses to address this position is beyond me. The above stat is just scary, no matter how good we are at finding sleeper FA's at guard.It would really pay to invest a pick or 2 in a guard who is nfl ready who excells in drive blocking. We have plenty of young, athletic project types. But most are very raw and are not great at drive blocking.That doesnt help us from a technical standpoint or for depth. 2-3 years down the road I see us having a top OL, but I really think we need to find a true drive blocker to be waiting in the wings behind Kendall. Until we have somebody bi g and strong who can anchor the running game, our RB's will struggle(zone scheme or not). It is time we addressed this, and as previously stated, I have no idea why it hasnt been already.
Here's my last word, you can't say they totaly neglected the Ol when they brought in 5 quality starters. You want to say that they didn't do as much as you wanted them to or that we needed to then i can buy it but I see too many people saying they didn' do anything and that isn't true at all.
Totally agree - Bradway quietly stockpiled development players and depth. It's funny this call for Maximillion Giles - did you ever think that the present regimen analysed the OL depth and quality and felt that they were in good shape and thus at this time they don't need more OL help? If anything I think Bradway did a very good job with the OL, but it did start with Parcells getting a cornerstone in Mawae.
Just had to have the last word. You said this already, and I could come back and make the arguments I have. We are just going back and forth saying the same things over and over again, it is useless. Let's just say you see things differently then me and others on the board, and let's leave it at that.
