JD should take Hamilton without hesitation at 4....

Discussion in 'Draft' started by NYJ1970, Feb 22, 2022.

  1. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    To begin with, I never said it was some dire need of a position group, so quit deflecting or trying to put words in my mouth.

    You're assuming an awful lot. I still believe in Becton, but I'm not willing to risk Zach's health and not developing on Becton. He could show up out of shape or even if he shows up lighter and in shape, he could still struggle and not play well. Fant's year at LT could have been a career year, and he could struggle this year. The Jets may not be able to come to terms with him on an extension. He may want more than they think he's worth. There are a number of reasons why drafting Ekwonu is a valid choice, and could be the RIGHT choice for the Jets. One can look at it this way...if JD drafts Ekwonu instead of Hamilton and Becton and Fant play well, JD can take some criticism for drafting an OG at #4 (but I don't know how many people criticized the Colts or still are for taking Nelson at #5) and/or having too many top level OTs. Conversely, if he takes Hamilton and then Becton shows up out of shape and/or doesn't play well, or if Fant struggles, and as a result Zach gets seriously hurt, or is constantly running for his life and doesn't show the progress that people think he needs to, then JD will look like a total idiot for not taking Ekwonu.

    I've said that I could understand why you would want Hamilton, and why JD may draft him. If so, I'll hope for the best. I'm not one of those posters/Jets fans who will want to go after JD with torches and pitchforks.

    This discussion and thread have clarified my thinking on this, and I'm now solidly leaning towards taking Ekwonu if KT isn't there or maybe even if he is if the negative rumors about KT are true.
     
  2. NYJFOREVER

    NYJFOREVER Well-Known Member

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    Marcus Williams, Jessie Bates, Justin Reid, Poyer, Hyde, etc. are all really good to solid pickups to address the safety position. Williams and Bates obviously being big money signings. I don't think Bates hits the FA market though.

    I don't want Hamilton because of the position he plays; it's got nothing to do with the player. Hamilton is a phenomenal player and would honestly be a great addition to any defense, but the Jets just have too many holes are more important positions. Like you said, the Jets did the same thing in 2017 and still lost a ton of games with Adams. Yeah, I get that they aren't the same player, but Adams was still an all-pro for the Jets.

    The Jets need to upgrade safety, but burning a top 4 pick on it is downright insane.
     
  3. NYJFOREVER

    NYJFOREVER Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the Giants situation is due to a lack of trying. They dumped a metric fuck ton of resources into that offense. Kenny Golladay, Toney, Shepard, Solder, Will Hernandez, Andrew Thomas, etc. Their last 3 coaching staffs have been god awful.

    I think the Jets take will add a veteran WR and TE in free agency and use their 2 first rounders on offense, specifically OT or WR (unless KT falls to them at 4). Expect lots of 3rd and 4th round picks targeting LB and S.
     
  4. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    They know. Jones sucks. Its why everyone was fired
    --

    the funny thing is that the Giants have addressed the offense almost exclusively and they took a wide reciever in the first round last year, which is in line with what you are arguing so I dont know why you felt compelled to bring them into this argument.

    Maybe if they didn't waste so much into propping up a flawed QB, and built a wall of an offensive line, or a great defense, they'd be perfectly set up for a veteran acquisition right now. Oh well fuck the Giants
     
  5. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    The only way that the bold becomes a consideration is if you're following a BPA methodology of drafting. We have ample evidence how badly that method works because that's what Maccagnan used. It doesn't matter whether Hamilton is a better prospect than Ekwonu - assuming Ekwonu is relatively close in ranking - what matters is: what does the team need more? As I've said, and NC and few others have also, the OL is far from settled or dependable. When people say, "Well the OL was okay last season", that has to be put in context: it was "okay" compared to the flaming dumpster fire it had been. And while they settled down and did "okay" in the middle part of the season, by the end they only had one starter who wasn't out injured. That's far from "okay". Even so, let's go with they're "okay", that's assuming Becton comes back near to form, they resign Fant, Becton doesn't get his panties in a bunch being moved to RT, and they can find at least an average RG - that's four big question marks that make the OL far from "okay".

    OTOH, while we do need to improve the Safety position, they can do that by signing Maye, and another FA Safety, and drafting one in the mid rounds. That certainly should improve things enough for next year, and if it doesn't they can go hard after a Safety in 2023.

    I think it's clear which position is a higher position of need, and therefore which one should be targeted at #4 if there isn't a stud Edge available that JD likes.
     
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  6. apjbfc

    apjbfc Well-Known Member

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    Don't want a Saftey at 4. It's against the position not the player.

    Have we seen safteys change a superbowl contender into a winner recently? I can't think of any

    Have we seen superbowls won in the trenches recently? Yes.

    Project your qb by line and give him an outlet.

    Destroy their QB by consistent pressure and sacks.

    I want to trade down but I will be distraught if we leave the first round with no DE.

    Sent from my M2007J20CG using Tapatalk
     
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  7. JohnnyP123456

    JohnnyP123456 Well-Known Member

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    just don't think I would be able to get on board the value of him at 4 when we have so many other holes on the roster, especially when we also have to build around our young (hopefully) franchise QB.
     
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  8. NYJ1970

    NYJ1970 Well-Known Member

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    Everyone in this thread seems to have forgotten one big point... Joe Douglas was a Raven and watched first hand them deciding to take Ed Reed. The rest is history and since that time there's no way JD would have forgotten the idea of a great Safety and what that can do for your defense. JD, if he's worth his salt, is looking at adding Hamilton very seriously. A generational player like that is nothing to be taken for granted. That's what the Jets will be doing if they just use some foolish argument like the Jets aren't good enough to add a Hamilton. You draft him without hesitation and build the defense around him.....
     
  9. NYJ1970

    NYJ1970 Well-Known Member

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    I would take Boye Mafa in the 2nd round and be ecstatic that we added a marquis player at Safety and much needed help at edge. Mafa was a beast at the senior bowl and more than likely he'll climb the charts more after the combine.
     
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  10. NYJ1970

    NYJ1970 Well-Known Member

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    So let's assume Ronnie Lott is available for you to take and Safety is a huge need for your team. Are you going to turn down taking the pick because the Jets simply aren't good enough and have so many holes elsewhere? That would be insanity of the highest order..... Better yet dig up Bill Walsh's dead bones and ask him if he was the very least hesitant about taking Lott because the 49ers were still building their team.....
     
  11. K'OB

    K'OB 2021 TGG Fantasy Football Champ

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    I love it when they are reduced to defending themselves to themselves ;)
     
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  12. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh really! Lets look at the record. When Wilson was not playing 3 Jets QBs compiled these stats:

    Games: 5
    Completed: 144
    Attempted: 219
    Yds: 1623
    TDS 11
    Pct. 66

    Lets compare to Wilson

    Games: 13
    Completed 213
    Attempted 383
    Yds: 2334
    TDS: 9
    Pct: 56

    While not stellar stats, the 3 QBs substituting for Wilson during the season compiled clearly better passing stats than he did. So based on your view, the Jets receiving corps, and by extension the OL, somehow decided to be bad when Wilson was QBing but got better when the other 3 had to take over. And let's not forget that backups don't get the practice reps that the starter does and therefore shouldn't be compiling better stats. The problem is not the receiving corps, it's Wilson.
     
    #92 westiedog1, Feb 24, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
  13. KY Jets Fan

    KY Jets Fan Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't that the skill guys decided to be bad but more that they just weren't healthy. Zach never had a fully healthy team around him in the final 7 games while the worst situation any of our backups encountered was probably the Week 7-8 stretch when we didn't have Corey Davis and Tevin Coleman.

    I just went through the entire season and there were actually only 2 games where a key skill guy wasn't hurt (I included Week 5 when only Kroft was out) when Zach started.

    It wasn't too bad early on as we were typically only down 1 key guy but from Game 11 (when Zach returned) on we were down 2 or more key skill guys.

    Game 1 (@Panthers): Zach: No skill guys hurt

    Game 2 (Patriots): Zach: No Jamison Crowder & Keelan Cole

    Game 3 (@Broncos): Zach: No Jamison Crowder

    Game 4 (Titans): Zach: No Elijah Moore

    Game 5 (Falcons): Zach: No Tyler Kroft (pass)

    Game 6 (@ Patriots): Zach/White: No Tyler Kroft & Tevin Coleman

    Game 7 (Bengals): White: No Corey Davis & Tevin Coleman

    Game 8 (@Colts): White/Johnson: No Corey Davis & Tevin Coleman

    Game 9 (Bills): White/Flacco: No skill guys hurt

    Game 10 (Dolphins): Flacco: No skill guys hurt

    Game 11 (@Texans): Zach: No Michael Carter & Corey Davis

    Game 12 (Eagles): Zach: No Michael Carter & Corey Davis

    Game 13 (Saints): Zach: No Michael Carter, Tevin Coleman, Elijah Moore, & Corey Davis

    Game 14 (@Dolphins): Zach: No Elijah Moore, Corey Davis, & Ty Johnson

    Game 15 (Jaguars): Zach: No Elijah Moore, Corey Davis, & Jamison Crowder

    Game 16 (Buccaneers): Zach: No Tevin Coleman, Elijah Moore, Corey Davis, & Jamison Crowder

    Game 17 (@Bills): Zach: No Elijah Moore, Corey Davis, & Braxton Berrios

    I'll be the first to say Zach was awful last year but when you see what he was dealing with down the stretch, it sort of makes sense.
     
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  14. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    The stats alone don't tell the picture. That's where your reasoning fails. Zach was a rookie, learning, whereas those other 3 QBs are veterans. BIG difference. MLF was learning on the job as an OC. Early in the season he was trying to exploit holes in the opposing team's secondary rather than trying to develop Zach, get him and his receivers in a groove. In addition, early in the season, many of the "weapons" around Zach didn't know the offense. They ran the wrong routes, didn't execute blocks. The OL was pretty porous early. AVT was a rookie and he was learning. He got better as the season progressed. By the time Zach was injured, MLF moved to the booth, realized his mistakes and started changing his approach. With both White and Johnson, MLF's play calling early in the game was totally different than it had been with Zach early in the season. He called short passes with easy reads to get them settled in and confident. He had never done that with Zach.

    White had a career game vs Cincy. They either just had a bad day or didn't take him seriously. He came crashing back to earth the following week. Flacco and Johnson should have executed the offense better due to being veterans, to the OL having pretty much gelled by that point (except GVR), the rest of the offense knowing the offense by then and being able to execute better, and MLF had learned and adjusted.

    Trying to compare a rookie trying to read complex defenses vs veterans is a joke. Of course they were going to process faster and make quicker decisions. Following his injury, Zach played at a much higher level. With the OL and WRs that Zach had to finish the season with, I don't think any of those other 3 QBs would have done a fraction as well as Zach did.

    In addition, I'm not aware of those receivers dropping passes that hit them in the hands with those other QBs like they did Zach.

    Listen, you know I like and respect you. You're a good poster and fan. Your reasoning/analysis of this issue is off, however. It's not up to your usual standards.
     
  15. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the research on this but I'm not sure what this has to do with the argument I was trying to make. Yes, there were injuries to key players, but as your list points out, there were injuries to key players no matter who started at QB. We all know Zach had a difficult season, however, the poster I was responding to (NC) seemed to be pointing the finger at the receivers being the problem and making the argument that we need to draft more (i.e. better) receivers. You can't conclude that the receivers were bad just because they were injured. I was simply pointing out that our receivers put up better numbers when Zach was not at QB.
     
  16. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you , you know of course, I feel the same about you. However, we'll just have to disagree about this.
     
  17. KingRoach

    KingRoach Well-Known Member

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    You make an excellent argument why we should be drafting OL depth in rounds 3+.

    I still believe drafting a backup OT in the 1st makes as much sense as drafting another QB.

    It’s literally the same argument. “If the starter we drafted recently in the 1st doesn’t develop, then we’re screwed!”

    Your 4 big questions include gems like:
    Resign Fant - Fant is under contract
    Bectons feelings - Becton played RT in college
    And finding a serviceable RG - let’s draft one at #4!! Jfc

    Yet signing an unhappy and recently injured Maye isn’t a huge question mark?

    I have 0 doubt Mac would tag Maye and draft a backup OT at #4… I just think JD is better than that.
     
  18. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    the chiefs signing matthau pushed their defense over the edge and helped them win a SB in 2019
     
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  19. KY Jets Fan

    KY Jets Fan Well-Known Member

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    Well as they say, the best ability is availability, so health does tie into how good someone is IMO.

    You can't really say that the back-ups had it as rough as Zach did either. There's a huge difference between being down a top 2 receiver (CD) & a top 3 RB(depending on how you view Coleman, maybe he's RB2) and then compare that to Zach's last 5 games where the best case scenario for him was being down WR 1 & 2 and RB 2/3 or being down WR 1, 2, & 4.

    Again, Zach was awful and he's got to be better next season but I feel like any QB would struggle with what he had to deal with in his last 7 games.
     
  20. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with this, especially about him needing to get better.
     

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