sorry, agree to disagree...for him to garner the 2 biggest awards of his league, his numbers(including W's) should be outlandish. No dice
Only because of 2 retarded voters (not even listing Pedro in the top 10) resulted in Pedro getting robbed that year. I know the gaudy win total isn't there, but Santana has absolutely dominated this year. He is first in the AL in wins, strikeouts, ERA, WHIP, innings, winning percentage and batting average against. Add in the fact that the Twins rotation has absolutely crumbled around him (injuries to the supporting cast have been an argument for the pro-Jeter group) and I really believes he deserves the MVP this year.
Just to show the extent that Santana is dominating this year, his era is 2.77 while 2nd place is at 3.20 (Halladay). His 237 k's are 43 more than the next highest (Bonderman), and his averages 0.84 more k/9 than anyone else. No one in the AL has a WHIP under 1.10 besides for Johan at 0.98. His opponents average is .213 while Mussina is in 2nd at .241. I rarely believe a pitcher should be MVP (Pedro 99 was probably the last time), but in this case I do.
ok, as of now I'm officially holding my vote for Frank Thomas. He has 37 HRs, 102 RBI, and is single-handedly carrying this team on the offense side of the ball. They have an outside(not likely, but only 5 games out) shot of the best record in the AL, and Thomas will end up with 40+ HRs and 110+ RBI. He's not the most likeable guy, but it's good to see him reviving his career
Frank Thomas should probably get the comeback player of the year... i dont see him getting the MVP though
Thomas has been a great story this season, but his hitting hasn't been on the same level as Jeter, Dye, or Hafner.
No, his stats aren't as impressive as theirs, and those 3 should no doubt receive more consideration(which they will). It's a sentimental pick for me I guess.
Thomas should definately be a candidate for the MVP, though he doesn't really have the numbers to beat the other top candidates out. By the way, if the White Sox continue to plummet out of the playoff race does Dye lose his chance to win the MVP? That would really leave Jeter as the runaway favorite (because nobody gives any notice or respect to the players on the Twins.)
Wow, I typed that from 17's phone 2 posts up. I couldn't find half the proper punctuation I was looking for :lol:
No time to read the pages of this thread, but this is my take. He is the MVP for 3 reasons: 1. Jeter is a Yankee. 2. Jeter is having a very good season and will likely winning the batting title. 3. Jeter kept the team afloat while everyone else was hurt or being booed. Yes, a major reason when the team stayed afloat was because guys like Andy Phillips played like all-stars in spurts. But, because there really isn't a strong force to oppose him, he's my pick for the AL MVP. 2. Johan Santana (Does any other player in recent memory give his team a chance to win every time he pitches?) 3. David Ortiz (The most important to his team, but he missed a lot and his team isn't good enough) 4. Jermaine Dye
Okay, here is the be-all-and-end-all of the argument. Here are the official guidelines for ML MVP voting. They have not changed once since 1931. Now that those are on the table, let's look at Jeter's argument for the award. Actual value on offense AND defense. All you Met fans who don't watch him every day have no idea the range that Jeter has on defense. You keep posting what ESPN tells you. I'll keep trusting my eyes. Ortiz doesn't even know how to put on a glove, and Dye is an outfielder. Jeter takes the defense argument on chances alone. However, just to be fair, Dye's FPCT is .983 with 287 chances. Jeter's is .975 with 566 chances. There isn't even a close comparison. As far as offense, I'll take even the second place guy on the AVG list. Especially one who creates runs when his team really needs them. Number of games played. Jeter: 142. Ortiz: 138. Dye: 136. (I won't even bother with pitchers, since they can't compare.) Character, disposition, loyalty, and effort. Let's see. Jeter is well regarded all around the sport and the media as a class act. (Just because Met and Boston fans don't like him doesn't make him less of a classy person.) Plus, Ortiz pretty much screwed his chances on this part with those comments the other day. All while Jeter was busy saying he doesn't care about awards, but wants his team to win it all. Character and loyalty. Disposition? Let's see, Ortiz cries that he is being knocked out of the MVP race, and Jeter is always smiling and shrugging the talk off. Effort? Just watch a highlight reel of Jeter in the field. If anyone plays with more raw effort than Jeter, I would love to see it. (Whether you like him or not, show me a player's highlight reel that shows he plays with more heart than Jeter on every play.) He's never won, so that doesn't matter. As far as other players on his team, the only guy who could compete with Jeter, at least numbers-wise is Giambi, and maybe Damon. However, neither fits the rest of the criteria. So all this BS talk about OPS, RBI, ERA, RS, HR, whatever, is IRRELEVANT. These are the established rules that have been used as the voting criteria for 82 years. No other supposed candidate even approaches Jeter in terms of the criteria.
You're gonna make the amateur sabrematicians angry, Alio. Didn't you know that the only way to judge a player is with OPS and Zone Factor?
You know what? I probably should have phrased that last paragraph differently. At that point I was all fired up and I was just typing on emotion. Yes, stats do count under "Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense." However, Jeter doesn't have poor offensive stats. And if you wanted to go solely based on offensive stats like HRs and RBI, as Ortiz supporters do, then Ryan Howard is EASILY the MVP in the NL. His HR and RBI totals BLOW AWAY Ortiz's. Plus, Howard's team is still in the WC hunt. Boston is just fading away. Then we go back to the second part of the guideline, which is very significant, DEFENSE. Jeter has DOUBLE the chances of Dye, and is only a couple of percentage points behind him. Ortiz doesn't even touch the field when more than 3 other teammates are touching dirt. Jeter is hitting .389 with RISP. He's also up right now, and has a 25 game hitting streak on the line. Not too bad offensively. So no, the stats aren't total BS, but they are only one part of the story.
I must've missed the offensive value comparison here. Not to mention that fielding % is probably the worst defensive metric you could use to compare players(although they're all pretty bad). Oh, there it is. Very in depth and convincing. Hafner can create runs at will, even when he's not at bat, especially when his team really needs them. It's true because I said it. Do we really need to discuss this? Jeter's played 3 more games, let's just give him the award! This category must've played a large role in the voters minds when Bonds was having his amazing seasons. It's clearly very relevant and matters alot.
Howard certainly should(and will) get MVP consideration in the NL. He's neck and neck with Pujols at this point. Then you have the 2nd tier guys like Cabrera, Beltran and Berkman who will get some votes but don't have much of a chance at winning. But I didn't think we were discussing that in this thread. Defense is such a hard thing to quantify, of course an infielder is going to have alot more chances then an OF'er. An "unearned runs" scored because of errors by a player might be helpful, although even this is heavily dependant on the quality of pitching and the situation an error is made. Then you also have the problem of balls that turn into hits but can't be ruled errors, because of poor range. This is why I tend to "ignore" defense as a default, unless the player is exceptional(which Jeter isn't) or egregiously bad. In terms of runs prevented/allowed when you're comparing 2 "average to good" defensive players it really isn't worth talking about.
Okay 3rd, so basically what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the actual official guidelines are? Your comparison to Hafner is ridiculous. Jeter does what he does. I don't know how many Yankee games you actually watch, so I won't bother to argue it with you. He has offensive numbers. What's the argument against that? There isn't one. Oh wait, the good ol' OPS, right? The end of any argument you make when comparing players. Apply for your AP Pass, you should be on the voting committee. Yes, Jeter has played MORE games. The criteria is stated as "Number of games played." That's what the guideline says. It's a significant part of the argument, for no other reason than it is an actual GUIDELINE to be adhered to when the voting commences. If you don't like it, apply for the Commissioner's position. I'm sure Bud Selig would step aside when you convince him that OPS is the only significant stat in the sport. The character clause is what it is. It is a guideline. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. If the writers choose to ignore the guideline, then what can I say? I don't vote, so I can't speak for them. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is a guideline. So keep taking one sentence from every paragraph I write, and try to keep proving yourself smarter than me. I don't care. So far, you have rebutted twice, and not presented me a valid reason why Jeter does not deserve the award, based solely on the criteria for the voting. When you do, I'll give you credit. Otherwise, I'll just keep saying you are wrong. BTW: Ryan Howard: OPS: 1.091, HR: 57, RBI: 140. Beltran: OPS: .985, HR: 40, RBI: 114. Ortiz: OPS: 1.037, HR: 49, RBI: 129. So, does Ryan Howard deserve the MVP? If you say no, but argue for Ortiz, I would have to call the BS card on you. According to your methodology, Beltran shouldn't even be discussed as a candidate. Wouldn't you have to agree?
See? There is the issue. You believe Jeter has poor range. Perhaps that is due to his stat. Or perhaps that is because it's what ESPN chooses to tell you. The problem is, if you don't watch the Yankees every single day, you have no clue just how good Derek Jeter is at shortstop. He has range in EVERY direction. Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you.
