Can you honestly say that any combination of Strickland/Sheppard/Lowery is better than Cromartie and Wilson? Against any team? Do you truly believe that Cromartie and Wilson lined up against anyone Sheppard or Lowery faced last season wouldn't have more success? As for the effect of changing an opposing offense into run-mode, so what? Keep in mind that if an offense changes into that mindset our defensive coaching will adjust too. Do you honestly believe that if Revis is on Marshall, and Cro and Wilson are covering Bess and Hartline that Rex and Pettine wouldn't have everyone up front protecting against the run? They'd have the ability to cheat up safeties too. Again, like I said, you can't view anything here in a vacuum. Do you think we'd have won Sunday if instead of Cromartie and Wilson we had Lowery and Sheppard? Because if you're saying that the upgrades we made to corner in the offseason didn't significantly help us, that's what you're implying. Manipulating wasn't a fair word to use. However, you are showing them in a vacuum, as I said, and that's not reflective of the product that is actually out on the field. You can't honestly say that. You just don't know. How does the coaching staff adjust? Does Bryan Thomas have a bigger impact? Do we cheat up safeties to contain the run? When you have tight coverage that you can rely on, you can change the mindset up front to attack the opponent's backfield. That's the value that Revis, in addition to the upgrades of Cromartie and Wilson, gives you.
Actually at the moment I would take Strickland and Sheppard over Cromartie and Wilson. That's just for the moment and that's only because Wilson's inexperience is really causing issues back there. I'm pretty sure by game 5 or so I'd take the two we have hands down over Strickland and Sheppard. There's no question that the Jets have upgraded their cornerbacks over last season. How many balls do you think Marshall would have caught against Sheppard Sunday night? Might have been 10 but probably less. He's a 7 catch a game guy based on his history so he really had quite the game against Cromartie. And yes I think Strickland would have done a much better job that night than Wilson did. Again Wilson is rookie toast at the moment and that's to be expected. The more teams run against the Jets this year the less effective the defense will be. That was true last year also, and not just in the typical "we're ahead already so we'll run the ball" mode. Jacksonville beat the Jets because they established the run and kept coming back to it. Miami beat the Jets in the first loss because they established the run and kept coming back to it. Their QB's both had uncharacteristically good games against the Jets pass defense mainly because they established the run as a real threat and blunted Ryan's aggressive fronts. Cromartie couldn't have covered Bess much better than he covered Marshall. It's just a bad matchup with Bess being the kind of elusive, quick receiver that gives just about anybody fits. That was going to be an issue no matter what. Ryan was right to put Wilson on Bess because he's the guy who will have to cover him most likely moving forward, he's just a much better matchup. If Revis is there then maybe Marshall goes 6 catches for 62 yards and Bess breaks out. Who knows? Cromartie would have been a much better matchup on Hartline than anybody the Jets used on hm though so again, who knows? Do you think Henne would have thrown for 450 yards and 4 TD's if we had Lowery and Sheppard instead of Cromartie and WIlson? Because that's what you're implying. The Jets got lit up in the secondary and they won the game. The odds they'd have gotten lit up worse without their current corners are pretty low. Lit up is lit up and Henne is no Brady, Manning or McNabb. I doubt that a Rex Ryan defense can play much worse against the pass than what we saw Sunday night. Any time that teams have seriously challenged the Jets on the ground in the Ryan era they have usually won the game, even if it looked ugly and the results on the ground were not pretty. Atlanta ran the ball at the Jets 28 times and came away with an ugly win. Buffalo ran the ball at the Jets 42 times and came away with an ugly win. The Saints ran the ball at the Jets 32 times and came away with an ugly win. The Ravens in the opener ran the ball at the Jets 35 times and came away with an ugly win. If you want to beat the Jets right now you run at them. Even if you light them up in the secondary you don't really improve your chances to win against them but if you keep the ball on the ground you have an excellent shot.
You edited your post to write that? hmy: You do realise that being a Rookie in Rex's scheme must be fairly difficult? Wilson is not a bad DB right now and has massive upside, maybe as much as Revis, we just don't know yet. So far hes pretty much lived up to what I would have expected, and thats not trash.
There were reasons other than Revis that the Pats went scoreless in the second half of that game. And clearly other than Revis being out, which is the point you are trying to make. Imo the Ravens have an improved offense. They scored 24 points, with Flacco throwing three TD's, this past Sunday. Yes, they self destructed against Cincy in week two. But not Sunday. Against Revis and the Jets in week one, they were far less effective. Also regarding the Miami game, Miami torched the Jet secondary for 363 yards. Unfortunately that is far more a concern for the Jets right now than the ineptitude of NE in the second half of the second game. With Revis out, 363 yards. I think that says a lot.
hmy: That's crazy talk man! :wink: Seriously though, no way in any universe would I say the same thing. Even with Wilson's lack of experience I would take him over Lowery, and Cro over Sheppard. I don't think Sheppard could have covered Marshall as well as Cromartie did, but that's sort of irrelevant. The key is that Revis would have completely shut down Marshall, thereby rendering the biggest offensive factor they had irrelevant. Given the talent upgrade that would then have shifted to secondary receivers, Henne would not have had a good game at all. Remember, the thread is about how much the Jets miss Revis. Would the Jets have won Sunday without Revis? Well, the answer is clear. The only remaining question is: would the Jets have completely embarassed the Phins if Revis was there? Again, you're viewing in a vacuum. The Jets' defense was different last year. If it were all the same players besides Revis, then your points would be spot on. However, given that we have different personnel, you can't simply assume the Jets can't stop the run. In reality, the Jets are currently the 4th best team against the run. Is that due to teams throwing more because they can, or because they have to? (Admittedly, the Jets offense getting leads helps too.) Okay, so Cromartie on Hartline, Wilson on Bess, and Revis on Marshall. Who beats the Jets in that scenario? Fasano? I won't imply that. I'll flat out say it. Yes, Lowery and Sheppard would have been lit up like a Christmas tree by Henne. Obviously that's not how to beat the Jets, since it's not working. Miami is a running team, but they didn't on Sunday. Why? Because they thought they could torch the Jets' secondary enough? That didn't exactly work out too well for them. It's not really fair to make a determination yet though. Just as I didn't think it fair that you made assumptions I shouldn't do it either. Could the run defense get blown up when Revis is back? Sure. I don't think it will, but we really do have to wait and see.
Nobody, but then again nobody beat the Jets on Sunday night either. A lot of the positions people are taking right now are positions I would have expected them to take if we lost that game. We won, lousy pass defense and all. And really the Fins couldn't have had a much better game through the air short of bringing Marino back in his prime. Henne missed very few of his receivers who were open and the Fins got good yardage when they needed it several times during the game. There's just no way. The Fins didn't miss much in terms of the passing game. Henne is not a great QB who is going to light up teams for 400+ yards. He was about at the limit last night, with the inability to finish being huge and he failed to finish against Brodney Pool and Drew Coleman not any of the guys we're talking about. My nightmare for this season is that the Jets built to fight last year's war against Peyton Manning and they're going to actually be facing the Steeler's run game in the AFC Championship game and just as unprepared for it as they were last year against the Colts.
It's just plain silly and without cred to suggest there is "no way" the fish would not have had equal success were Lowery and Sheppard the corners. How can you say no way? Lowery is also still on the roster. If Lowery is really better than Cro and/or Wilson, why don't the CS play him more? My answer would be that he's mediocre at best, but what do I know.
What you're completely discounting is that Cro and Wilson in coverage prevented some completions, but more than that, their coverage was less susceptable to big plays. No way Sheppard and Lowery don't give up much longer passing plays, much of which occur after the catch. You're putting Henne in a vacuum to make your point now. No, he's not a Marino who can beat you all on his own. However, all he has to do is get it near a talent like Marshall and matched against Lito Sheppard, Marshall is going to win the battle. Your concerns about the rush defense might be valid, but then again, they might not. Miami has a good ground game, but again, we don't know why they only attempted the run 1/3 of their plays. Is it because the Jets' D looked prepared to contain it? Is it because they were having some success throwing? Is it because they felt with Revis out they'd have more success taking shots? Is it because the Jets were able to put a lot of points on the board? We won't know until around the bye week how good our run defense is. We're going to face some more talent on the ground over the next few weeks, so we'll have a better picture later in October. So far, I feel like we're better in that department and that we can maintain at least an adequate defense against the ground attack.
Our run defense has been stellar so far and we faced 2 good running teams already. The longest run we've given up is 17 yards and that was on Miami's final drive when we were guarding heavily against the pass. Save for that run I think the longest run we gave up was 8 yards.
Sheppard and Lowery didn't give up those long plays last year. Why do you think they'd magically have given them up last night? The one long play the Fins got on the Jets last year in the air was when Darrelle Revis and Jim Leonhard got beat by Ted Ginn. I just don't understand the retrospective view that says that Sheppard and Lowery were terrible last year, when they clearly were as good as Cromartie and Wilson have been so far this year. It just doesn't make sense. Yes, both of them got torched, along with Drew Coleman, by Peyton Manning, but we weren't facing Peyton Manning on Sunday night. We were facing Chad Henne. They'd have been just fine, or at least just as fine as Cromartie and Wilson were. Edit: for the record Davone Bess had 6 catches for 86 yards Sunday night. He had about the best game he could possibly have. Last year in the first game when Henne passed very well? Bess caught 3 for 18 all night. I guess he was being covered by a ghost or something.
Wait, what!?!?!?! hmy: Br4d, I don't want to come off as insulting, but that is just nuts. In what world can you say Sheppard and Lowery were as good last year as Cromartie and Wilson this year? First of all, Lito and Lowery had Revis on the other side covering the #1. Second, at no point did they cover Brandon freaking Marshall! Marshall is the best receiver in the AFC East, hands down. Better than Moss. Better than Welker. Better than Edwards. Better than Holmes. I am literally shocked that you think Sheppard and Lowery would have been as effective as Cromartie and Wilson on Sunday.
Again, I just have to respond that in light of what the Jets pass defense actually did on Sunday it's kind of silly to suggest that anybody who was an NFL player could have done worse than what the Jets corners actually did. The Jets corners not named Revis last year covered all the Dolphins wide receivers not named Ginn like a glove. You can go look it up. The damage Henne did to them was from Ricky Williams, Ted Ginn and Anthony Fasano. If Lowery and Strickland and Coleman and company had been that bad there'd have been a lot more completions to the wideouts and there just weren't.
It also helps when Lowery/Lito/Strickland were not covering the #1 WR when they didn't even have a WR worthy of #1 last year. Plus, it also doesn't help that it wasn't Henne's 2nd or 4th start in the NFL. Henne is playing better just like Sanchez is playing better. If Lowery was any better than Wilson or Cro, he would have been subbed in on Sunday night after the adjustment. Lowery may actually be a touch better than Wilson, but Wilson's game time experience is quickly making him better than Lowery. Last year, Dolphins didn't have Marshall while the Jets had Revis. This year, Dolphins had Marshall and we didn't have Revis covering him. Its a simple equation that suggests Jets would not cover the Dolphins as good as last year. Henne had a good game last year against us if u recall.
Last year the Jets had very little game film of Henne to work with, too. It's apples and oranges. To assume the only differing variable between the games last year and Sunday night's is Revis is incorrect and poor analysis.
