Government shut down and Debt Ceiling

Discussion in 'BS Forum' started by Biggs, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    the entire country should be perturbed at this charade. there is no winner here despite what we will be fed in the coming days. certainly many losers as another J/J band aid is stuck on the gaping wound.

    i am assuming ur comment references my republican - albeit moderate nature. that my friend doesn't matter. as i said a disgrace on BOTH sides of the fence, including the WH.

    if u want anger come see me at around 3:15 pm this sunday....;)
     
  2. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    This particular disaster which has already cost the country real GDP, hurt thousands of private and public businesses around the country and will increase the debt in this fiscal year is completely on the Republicans in the House. The Senate and the President have been ready to pass a bipartisan bill for weeks. The Democrats actually passed a budget this year and the House has refused to negotiate for months now.

    Be a man and stop trying to deflect on this one. This job costing, GDP costing increase to the debt fiasco is on one Party, the Republicans.

    The Republican Party of today is coming apart at the seems and rightfully so. It's unfortunate because we need a good 2 party system. The Democrats don't have a minority party that they can negotiate with. The Republican House doesn't even know what their demands are.
     
    #62 Biggs, Oct 16, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  3. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    not deflecting a thing biggs - thats my opinion and it stands. thats being a man.

    i look at the larger picture and its a fact that 17 T in debt is a 2 party responsibility, not just the GOP. putting the last 2 weeks aside, the debt has accelerated under the current administration and no doubt will approach 19/20 T by 2016.

    ur comments about the republican party are correct - but the GOP should not the sole lightning rod in this circus environment.
     
    #63 jilozzo, Oct 16, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  4. TommyJ

    TommyJ Well-Known Member

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    retardlicans, dumbocrats, tea idiots, left, right , conservative, liberal, chicken hawks, etc. etc., they all suck, the system is completely broken and corrupt now, if it hasn't been from its inception.
     
  5. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    The sad thing is that no matter how much people write on message boards how appalled they are with congress, the same people get elected and re-elected at at least an 80% clip. We need real election reform in the worst way.


    On a lighter note, its something of a shame that Hobbes can't post here anymore. I think I would find his explanation of this rather amusing.
     
  6. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    The National debt is not accelerating. The reason we have exceedingly slow growth right now is the budgetary deficit has been shrinking to fast. The sequester and the ending of the tax cuts on the middle class were both dumb and both caused by Republicans unwillingness to negotiate on taxes as part of a larger long term deal.

    Blaming this administration for the housing bubble unfunded wars and the demographic time bomb of entitlements is another big lie.
     
  7. TommyJ

    TommyJ Well-Known Member

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    I've been gone for a long time, didn't know Hobbesy boy got banned. too bad.
    election reform is a great thought, but how can it be carried out when you have campaign donations from corporations that pretty much call the shots in the end. how can anyone change that? that's a tough and tall order.
    The networks should give free air time to anyone running for office, that way they wouldn't have to fake all of their promises of what they are going to do if elected. ( watch the "Bulworth" movie, it rings as true today as it did when it was made, awesome flick)

    like the networks would ever do that, haa haa, that's a laugh!
     
  8. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Corporations are decidedly unhappy with the shut down and the potential default. This could be a huge economic boon for Democrats going forward. The tea party actions are extremely unfriendly toward business interests.
     
  9. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    Glad you agst, my man. Very simple three point agenda: Public financing of campaigns. Term limits. Anti-gerrymandering legislation.
     
  10. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

    big picture - debt is accelerating higher. to be fair the article states that it started this log rise during 07/08 during the early parts of the crisis - under bush. and has continued under BO.

    i am not blaming this admin for the housing and entitlement bubble. there is enough blame to go around for all administrations.
     
  11. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Debt is not accelerating higher. The deficit for this year is the lowest since 08. The annual deficit came down this year in real dollars and it came down more in relation to our economy if you take into account GDP growth.

    The only way the National debt can come down is If we ran a surplus and paid down the deficit. Hard to see that as practical when GDP growth is already being squeezed by tax hikes and spending freezes.

    What's telling about this shutdown is it wasn't about the budget or debt. In fact the shutdown itself will reduce tax revenue and increase federal expenditures.

    Both parties were very close to a long term deficit reduction plan. The problem, the right wing of the Republican Party will only negotiate on entitlements, they won't negotiate on defense or revenue other than revenue neutral plans based on the Bush era taxes.

    The moderates on both sides could have reached a deal 2 years ago, last year and this year. The hang up is the right wing of the Republican Party.

    Ted Cruz is being kicked to the curb by Republicans today. Maybe things are going to change?...
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324085304579008922578996940
     
  12. ShadeTree#55

    ShadeTree#55 Active Member

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    Can't we just agree to print more imaginary money to pay the Chinese, so we can all get to spending money we don't have for the holiday season?
     
  13. akibud

    akibud Active Member

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    ......... the crisis has been averted!! The Tea Party has caved........ for today. What now?? are we ok??

    [YOUTUBE]dCkmL2MGU48[/YOUTUBE]
     
  14. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    Come on jil. You and your pet political party really need to act like men and own this debacle. They behaved like a bunch of kids throwing a tantrum and in the process did incredible short term damage to the economy. The irony is that this really hurts your beloved "little guy, Joe six pack" that Republicans love to pretend that they are really looking out for. The only people still buying that lie are those who have already invested too much to go back on it.
     
  15. Big Blocker

    Big Blocker Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you don't seem to need any help here.

    I did want to comment how widespread it seems is the perception that the size of annual deficits is out of control. In fact they have come down too fast with a virtual certainty.

    It was interesting that one of the demands put forth in the recent "discussions" by the Tea Partiers was to delay the medical device tax. that would have increased the deficit even more. Yet it was supported because it was rightly seen as an attack on the ACA. So what is it? Attack Obamacare, or the deficit?

    Frankly the demands and strategy of the right wingers is incoherent.
     
  16. 21stAmendment

    21stAmendment Member

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  17. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Exactly-Giving up the tax cuts and the sequester has brought down the deficit at the expense of growth. That would be fine if we had 4% unemployment and wages were keeping up with inflation. In the current environment it has done nothing but stunt the growth of a normal recovery to anemic.

    The Republicans had a good argument when the Dems refused to put a budget on the table. This year the Dems did put a budget on the table. The Repubs refused to negotiate. They were absolutely adamant on using the nuclear weapon of default to get their way on Obamacare. The fact that they got their asses kicked in the last election meant nothing.

    I'm not a fan of Obama and generally have supported moderate Republicans over the Democrats but I give Obama credit for finally showing some spine. These guys are lunatics and until the Republican leadership guts them the party can't be taken seriously.
     
  18. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    This is not a win or lose spot. As much as urself and others try to portray it. I am taking a big picture, multi year approach here and the picture is not very pretty.

    From administration to administration debt IS accelerating higher, we all can see that. Of course this has slowed this calendar year but does anyone really think that will be a permanent trend. No chance. None.

    It is not my pet party - just because someone is registered republican doesn't mean they are scarred for life and a tea party follower. Quite frankly many of those idiots would fit in quite well on this thread.

    Honestly I don't look at the scrawny details of medical device taxes, mandates, and such. All I know is that there is a 2000 plus page bible of provisions, laws, and guidelines that will no doubt have a net deficit and spending increase when we look back in 3-5 years.

    Sorry but that's gonna be my last post on this topic as I sense that wolves are circling the wagons and I will not get caught up in a Hobbes style debate. I have posted here for 12 years without incident and not gonna start now.
     
  19. nycarl

    nycarl Active Member

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    The statement above can't be right. If there is an annual deficit, the cumulative debt increases by the amount that deficit is. The percentage of the budget that's a deficit may decrease but the actual dollar amount of the country's debt is still increasing and will do so every year until there is an annual budget surplus (not that that will happen under either party).
     
  20. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    The national debt and the annual deficit are not the same thing. You could conceivably run annual budget surpluses and your national debt could still go up depending on your ability to meet your debt obligations.

    Why would you want to run a surplus in a period where we wages aren't keeping up with inflation that's minimal and we have high unemployment? Surpluses come when the economy is in full employment and the need for government spending is low. We are currently at war and don't have full employment yet the deficit on an annual basis is coming down fast. That's not a good thing at all.
     

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