Herm also picked Justin Medlock in the 5th round this year, and he gave up on him and went with Rayner.
This was the right call by Herm. It didn't work but it was still the right call. Kudos for him for having some balls.
Huge edge? Nugent and Rayner are basically the same guy. Nugent is a little better, and I hope he improves -- because for a 2nd round pick, he's playing fairly mediocre right now. Colquitt and Graham also have very similar numbers, but Graham gets very little hang time on his punts and that usually means the return man will get a chance at a decent return. Leon Washington is a better kick returner than Eddie Drummond, but I think Drummon has the edge in punt returning -- just because of his experience. There isn't a "huge edge", but we are slightly better in the return game and place kicking. Take off your green goggles. We are 2-9. Herm Edwards should stick with one kicker, that way one of them would gain some confidence. He pulled Medlock after he missed ONE field goal. Medlock did have an awful pre-season, but those games don't count. Now he's getting rid of Rayner for John "I Miss Extra Points" Carney? That is an idiotic move. Once again, we are 2-9.
How was it the right call? They lost the game because he called an idiotic play on 4th and short and they were in field goal range. They lost because of his idiocy. Players might like the guy as a coach, but he doesn't know how to manage a game, and he proved that here.
Actually, if you look back at the major Football Preview magazines, and website predictions, the Chiefs were almost unanimously picked to be one of the 3 worst teams in football.... I don't want to get into the Herm/Mangini debate, because while I believe Herm did a better job, I don't think he did a good job, Mangini's just done a TERRIBLE job.... But I figured I should point out that KC was widely expected to win no more than 4 or 5 games this whole season
Just one more thing I want to say in this thread... You're missing junc's point completely.... His point is that the Chiefs have done more with less than the Jets.... While I may or may not agree with this sentiment, his argument is saying that 2-9 is a product of coaching, not talent.... Using the record itself to refute the talent level he claims we have is an invalid counter-argument.... And believe me, this is probably the only time I'll defend junc in a debate, but I figured if there's going to be a long debate, there's no sense wasting time arguing points purposely invalidated by the other posters
I'm gonna quote Gregg Easterbrook cuz he's way smarter than I am but I agree with everything he says: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/071127 Message to Coaches: Kick, Avoid Blame: Trailing 20-17, Kansas City faced fourth-and-1 on the Oakland 23 with 4:26 remaining. Herm "I Honor My Contract When I'm In The Mood" Edwards ordered a try for the first down, and rookie tailback Kolby Smith was stopped for no gain. The reaction was a case study in why NFL coaches take the conservative approach -- to avoid criticism. If the coach orders even a high-percentage try and the team fails, he is lambasted; if the coach orders a kick and the team goes on to lose, the players are lambasted. After the game, sports radio hosts and sportscasters virulently denounced Edwards, with Tiki Barber on NBC's "Football Night In The Known Universe" calling the decision "inexcusable," and Jerome Bettis and Cris Collinsworth also strongly blasting the try. But about 75 percent of fourth-and-1 attempts succeed, and Kansas City had 36 rushes for 165 yards in the game to that point, so the odds were on the Chiefs' side. Had the try succeeded, Kansas City might have tied the game or even taken the lead while running down the clock -- then the NBC guys would have praised it as a bold, gutsy move. An awful lot of football commentary boils down to: "If you run you should have passed, and if you passed you should have run." True, the Kansas City fourth-and-1 attempt failed. But it was a smart, high-percentage decision. Had the play worked, sports yakkers would have fallen all over themselves gushing about it. Note: On the play before the fourth-and-1, Edwards called a timeout, then decided to challenge the spot of the ball. His challenge failed, and Kansas City was charged for a second timeout. A few weeks ago, Romeo Crennel did the same thing -- first calling a timeout, then throwing the challenge flag and losing a second timeout. In both games, the second timeout was sorely needed at the end. If you're going to challenge a call, just challenge it! A failed challenge costs a timeout, anyway, but a successful challenge is effectively a bonus timeout.
what on earth are you talking about? You want a read on what the public thought? Look at team over/unders. Kansas City's over/under was EIGHT wins. Not three, not four. EIGHT.
I'm going off of three magazines I have in my bathroom, and what I remember from reading predictions online.... Didn't look at the Vegas odds.... EDIT: Here are a few I was able to dig up online: http://www.footballforecasters.com/2007/afc-west-report.html (5-11) http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview07/news/story?page=team07/kan (4th in the AFCW, yes, behind Oakland, no record prediction) http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/jon_464/2007/08/11/NFL_Predictions_2007AFC_West (4-12) http://thesportsbrothers.com/2007-nfl-predictions/ (5-11)
vegas odds are always the best indicator for the widespread feeling about a team, not a few predictions. of course, part of the reason some of those people were predicted 4 or 5 wins was BECAUSE OF HERM.
The point was that a large majority of experts picked KC to be terrible this year.... And it's true, they did... Additionally, reading through articles, most of the picks were based on instability and uncertainty at the QB position, the holdout of Larry Johnson, and the loss of talent on the OL.... I'm not here to make the whole argument junc is making, but when he said that many people picked KC to win 4 or 5 games, he was right.... And btw, even though I will never swear by anyone else's predictions, especially not the talking heads at ESPN, Vegas makes its odds based on getting average gamblers to wager evenly on both sides... So those odds will often be largely based off of the previous season, as the average fan has more of an inclining to bet based on that than the offseason goings on, since many fans don't follow every move in the offseason... The expert predictions are often a better combination of the two, although far from accurate, they definitely take the team's current situation into account more than the Vegas odds do...
Most people thought the Chiefs wouldn't be that good this year. I think they have more talent than the Jets do, but it's not that huge a stretch. Calling TJ better than LJ isn't the smartest idea though.
irrelevant. He was talking about many people, meaning the public. If you want what "many people" believe, you look at the vegas lines. I personally thought KC would win 5 or 6 games, because even though the defense would be good, they had uncertainty at the QB position, an OL that doesn't have a lot of talent beyond Waters, and an abused RB who just got a big contract and was practically guaranteed to fall apart. Oh, and they have a pretty stupid coach to boot. That's why I bet the under. But "most people" did not agree that the Chiefs would only have 5 or 6 wins.
This thread is close to getting out of hand. There are now three big debates going on here. A) whether or not it was an idiotic call to go for it on 4th down B) which team has more talent C) whether the Chiefs were expected to win 7 games or 4 games How about we all just agree to disagree about everything and stop talking about the silly Chiefs?
There was not a prediction I saw that was more than 4 wins. They were expected to be horrible and they were in the thick of it until LJ got hurt. The Chiefs don't have the edge at RB this year as Jones has had a better year than LJ. We have the edge at RG especially w/ LJ out, C, LT, RG, both WR spots, Ellis is better than Hali even in the wrong scheme- Hali hasn't done much this year and he has a premier pass rusher on the opposite side of him Robertson is better than anything they have on the inside,barton/Thomas are as good as Donnoe Edwards is now, Harris is better than Nap Harris, Revis is as good or better than law is RIGHT NOW, Rhodes is better tha Pollard, Page-Coleman/Smith is even. ON STs we have the edge at K, P is even, we have a huge edge in the return game and coverage. We have more talent ready to win now which is why we were expected to compete for postseason and they were expected to compete for the top pick. KC has lost a ton of talent the last 2 offseasons and to even be compeitive this year is downright amazing. Not for a pass rusher(especially ne wo plays opposite a premiere pas rusher), I'd like to see pressures but they don't keep that stat. We must have been readong different predictions b/c I didn't seany 7 or 8 win predicitions for KC. LAST YEAR yes 7 or 8 was probbly the consensus but not this year. I was the only place there was a 7 wn predicition. Check out below, not one person at ESPN predicted KC to be WC team while a couple predicted the Jets: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview07/news/story?id=2984130 they also picked KC to be in last: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview07/news/story?page=team07/kan In their preseason power ranking they had us at 14 and KC t 26. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/powerranking?season=2007&week=1 CBS sprtsline predicted 4th: http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10334801 If you can find more predictions please post them, not many had the Chiefs even cose to .500, most had them competing for the top pick. I have an obsession w/ the truth. He was bashed here for years despite all the succes he had(I thought once we got rid of Herm everything would be ok, how has that worked out?) an now ou guys attack him in KC even though he's done a good job there. I guarantee you if he kicked the FG there would have been a thread blaming Herm for playing too conservatively. Nuge is better than Rayner, the P's are about even but w have a huge ede in the return game and in coverage. Leon is averaging 31.5 yards per KR w/ 3 TDs, Drummond only 20.6. That is a HUGE difference, one guy is tops in the league the other is well below average. That's 11 yards closer to the EZ w every KR- that's an astounding difference and even though Leon isn't a great PR he's still averaging nearly a yard more per PR. Rayner missing a 33 yard FG had nothing to do w/ it? it was all on Herm b/c his K missed a chip shot and his couldn't get a yard? All the facts say otherwise.
After he was criticized heavily for being too conservative, Herm turned over a new leaf by going for it in stupid ways and at stupid times. Surprise, surprise.
Predictably, given his record carries last season. One of the main reasons the Chiefs were predicted to be terrible was because people who understand football knew that Herm had ruined him in 2006.
