Again, just saying I would hope they put the 22 people on the field that they think give us the best chance to win.
My post was peaking to the point that there's really no way to know one way or the other whether Geno or Vick would have had more turnovers last year. Vick threw less percentage wise but also had more talent, and was playing weaker opponents. He also wasn't *that* much better % wise then Geno was ( and he was a rookie throwing to no bodies ).
The best 22 to win right now this year? Or the best 22 to have a franchise with sustained success? I think we know which one Idzik is shooting for.
This year..we worry about the future in the future, no telling who will be healthy then or even still on the team. That is supposed to be the idea of having open competition at every position but I don't think there really ever is.
geno did not even look like he belonged for most of last season. he had a few moments but he also had a month without completeting double digit passes. think about that and let it sink in. if Geno improved tremendously over the offseason by all means put him on but if he's not much better we shouldn't force him in there hoping he'll turn it aroumd when we have a legit threat at qb in vick.
Don't think Vick came here thinking he is riding the bench. Geno not as bad as Sanchez but Vick knows he can beat him.
Geno looked worse than Sanchez ever did to me, in fact he was closer to tebow tbh. Maybe you and others are mistaking new shine for better.
Neither Sanchez nor Geno were prepared for a starting job week 1, but for numerous reasons both were in there anyway. Mark had a phenomenally talent rich team around him, including excellent backs, a league best offensive line, and a #1 overall defense. Geno came into a whole lot of crap, and was probably less ready than Sanchez. That being said, I saw real improvements in the most important areas at the end of the year. Adjusting to the speed of the game is a difficult transition for all rookies, especially QBs. Some guys in the SEC come across something equivalent to the worst defense in the NFL once or twice in their careers; NCAA defenses just plain don't have the overall caliber of athlete a pro defense does. Seeing Geno's adjustments from the mistakes he made earlier in the season were really important, and I see exactly why the coaching staff is so high on him. I also understand that just because they are high on him, he hasn't shown nearly enough to sell the farm for him. Vick brings in legitimate competition, and is security for whatever happens since he is familiar with Mornhinweg's system. Vick could start if Geno is faltering, whether it's in camp or mid season, or Geno getting hurt.
Good points. Jets went 8-8 with young Geno at QB. However, now that he has an explosive cast around him he is got to win games for us; if not we find or franchise QB in '15? This is also assuming he beats out Vick. I disagree , we HAVE practically sold farm for Geno. Add up the guaranteed $ for all our FA's so far. Have not done the math but it is not 28 mil anymore. After good move on CJ Idzik has to get stingy.
Ahhhh this is can of worms. Maybe you can explain it more, can you give me an example from this team where the best 22 to win this year don't match the best 22 for sustained success, without any hypotheticals, just based on their play right now? I want to see this idea fleshed out more before I comment on it
Sure; Vick beats out Geno, leads team to 8-6 and then destroys his knee/shoulder/ribs ending his career. Geno comes in and loses our last 2 games against tough opponents. We go into year 3 basically still not knowing what we have in Geno with some of our centerpiece players yet another year older. Basically bringing up more questions about who is "the guy" and more used draft picks on that position. Letting Geno develop with our now young overhauled offense, even if he is a little bit worse then Vick ( if the competition is close ) is better overall for the team. Even if it means losing a couple more games at the start of the season, so long as Geno develops. If he doesn't continue to show improvement that's when you yank him and put Vick in the salvage the season with a known commodity that actually has potential to win. Basically if it comes down to it and through preseason, all things equal, Vick has a 85Qbr and Geno has a 75Qbr I would probably go with Geno. ( not saying this is a valid measurement, just putting numbers to the concept ) At least that's what I was trying to get across. Open to hear your thoughts though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ahh this makes more sense but it involves hypotheticals. This is assuming that Geno doesn't get better on the bench. Isn't there a chance he prepares week in and week out ,understands the game better, comes in and wins our last two? Then we got the win now and win in the future. It's a very thin line saying "The best 22 to win right now this year? Or the best 22 to have a franchise with sustained success?" There is no guarantee that Geno starting is better for sustained success. The scenario you placed above, I just drew one up off of it that flips it to leading to sustained success. Sustained success vs now also leads into the question of Rex Ryan. Does Rex have Idzik's support to risk not winning? To risk starting slow if Geno has 75 QBR and Vick 85 like in your example. If Vick beats him out by the eye test and numbers, and he starts Geno and Geno doesn't work, is Rex gone? What happens to the defense and the progress of the team? Is that sustained success? I see where you're coming from though in your hypothetical and I agree. But that's the tough part, we don't have the foresight to know Geno won't or will learn on the bench or won't or will learn by playing.
I never claimed you said What you said was I questioned that logic because it completely flies in the face of having a QB competition. Do you want to discuss what you said or what you didn't say?
It's all hypothetical until game day. If the last 2 are against tough defenses and the team is out of sync it will be tough to measure unless Geno comes in and lights it up. I think idzik has openly stated he's not in a *just* win now mode. He's in a make a winning franchise mode, I think he recognizes what he has in Rex in that he can get the players best for the most part. With the improved talent on offense to play to Rex's philosophy I think we're going to surprise people this year. One could argue this is the best setup team to "ground and pound" since 09. On the other side of the ball we may not have the corners but the front guys are the best Rex has had. They're going to get after people this year. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's not assuming he doesn't get better, it's assuming we really don't have a good idea. You may learn somethings on the bench, but chemistry with the offensive line and receivers is definitely no one of them. Unless Geno is pooping his pants in pre-season, he is who you want to start for the season. It's more beneficial to the team to start Geno, find out for sure if he's any good, and bench him for Vick if we have to. If Geno proves he's not the guy, we draft in 2015. Idzik is too smart to can Rex when it's not his fault. If the defense does it's jobs and gives Geno lots of opportunities to win, and the team never gives up and fights to the end, Rex will stay. Idzik knows Geno is not on Rex, but the rest of the team is.
To add to what you said Sanchez played in a pro style offense in college too. He obviously was more ready and as you stated landed in a much better situation outside of the OC. That said, I believe that you and many others on here over rate the obvious improvement at the end of the season from geno. He was playing at such an awful level prior that the improvement against mostly lesser competition seemed like more than it was to many IMO. That improvement also correlated directly to him running the ball more too. Maybe that's irrelevant but I don't think it adds up to much in terms of qb skills other than some better decisions which I recognize is important.
I just don't think playing Vick necessarily means we are losing sustained success in the future. Yeah you drew up a hypothetical where this occurred, but I also could see many where playing Vick to "win now" could also lead to sustained success. I don't think it's as simple as saying starting Vick is win now and starting Geno is sustained success opportunity. Interesting you mentioned ground and pound strategy. That could be a win now strategy. But using hypotheticals, we ground and pound our way to the playoffs. Was that Geno playing well or the team masking Geno's weaknesses? See, this is why I don't think it's as simple as one QB means we are looking to win now. I think we will play well this year. I expect to be in the WC hunt again. Geno is definitely who we want to start. I think I mentioned that in my earlier post in here. In my ideal scenario Vick plays well in TC and Geno beats him easily and starts. It would show a) we have a capable backup and b) Geno has improved in the offseason and become an adequate QB in the NFL (logically since he beat Vick and I see Vick as that). I don't think it's as simple as it's more beneficial to start Geno. It really depends how they are equal in the preseason. If they are both turnover free, making accurate throws, but you know having problems here and there, okay I could see starting Geno in a tie there. If they are close and Vick and Geno are careless with the football, I'd rather start Vick in that "tie" because it means maybe Geno needs to just see the game slow down still. I think it's too early just to be able to confidently say which is better for the Jets in April. The other part, I'm not sure I like the idea of is that somehow Geno will prove he's the QB in his second year. What he can do in his second year is prove that the Jets shouldn't give up on him. BUT that shouldn't stop the Jets from drafting a top QB if he falls to them. Unless Geno makes a tremendous leap, which we would see in training camp if it's that tremendous, starting him might just answer should we keep him around, not if he's a franchise QB. Basically, I'm doing a bad job of it, but I'm saying I think it's too early for me to say confidently Vick or Geno is better for the Jets down the road. I see where both of you are coming from and I definitely see the logic and agree if it breaks that way in scenarios listed, the Jets are in great shape.
I understand what you're saying here, but a tie between Vick and Geno where they both look like crap is a worst case scenario and in that case we would have to re-evaluate in camp. I think the more likely possibility is one guy is going to look bester than the other, or they will both look pretty much equal. I think in most situations where Geno and Vick are about equal means playing Geno is beneficial. I'm not saying Geno has to prove he is great this year, but I want to see improvement. Either Geno steps up, shows he needs more competition in 2015, or proves we can't put any more faith in him beyond this year. Geno's biggest issues were his decision making, he was very accurate in the beginning of the year, and his gun-shy attitude was the real issue. When he had better receiving options, he also got better at knowing when to tuck and run, not to back up, and not to see ghosts in the pocket. The issues that plagued him were the issues he improved upon the most, and that's why the coaching staff is high on the kid. No one expects an all pro 2014 season from Geno, but the ability to improve specifically on what your issues are is something every coaching staff loves to see. It means they are able to be coached up.
While I agree that decision making was a big problem for Geno I don't believe it was his biggest problem. His footwork was the biggest problem and until that is cleaned up everything else will continue to suffer. Getting better at knowing when to tuck and run is a good thing. I think it's much more important that he fix his footwork and learn to go through his progressions on time. Those are more directly correlated to good QB play than knowing when to run the ball. They're also more difficult to improve. I really hope he does improve those things and win the competition because he does have some very nice physical tools and I like his moxy. I don't think it's something we should expect him to have cleaned up so quickly though. A year to sit the bench and focus on those things while Vick is the care taker is the ideal scenario if he's still not ready to play. I think we agree he wasn't last year.
