That's an absurd position to take. Regardless, this is a workplace environment, so any individual's opinion on the meaning/power/proper use of words is irrelevant because, as we all know, it's a workplace environment.
Yeah because an NFL locker room and a career in making money playing a violent sport is the typical workplace environment where all the same rules apply. Would you be able to get in fist fights during training at an accounting firm and not lose your job?
That has nothing to do with workers' rights. Would you, as a construction worker, be able to bring your heavy equipment into an accounting meeting? Your hypothetical is irrelevant to how federal and state laws apply to jobs in all different sorts of fields. That and football players don't *only* fight during training camp, FYI.
not a relevant comparison. we are discussing behavior, which is what laws for hostile workplace apply to, not tools of the trade. that's an offensive comparison to make because it indicates that you believe the person you are talking to is so stupid that they don't know the difference between those two entirely different things -- behaviors and tools, and thus would be fooled by the argument. not bringing heavy equipment into a meeting would be stopped for entirely different reasons. the question you have to answer is where the workplace ends? just practice? what about during a game? that's the workplace as well, so should players be able to sue the opposing team for the opponents talking trash and creating a hostile work environment? or sue their own team for making sure the team they have scheduled them to play against behaves in accordance with hostile work environment laws? sorry, but it is clear that pro sports differs significantly from the normal workplace environment.
that's a lie. there is no absolute part of the hostile work laws that states specific words are illegal and thus inherently hostile. it is about whether the language creates a hostile work environment, and that inherently requires context to be considered. to come to your conclusion you have to ignore the most important part of hostile work environment laws -- "unwelcome" verbal or physical conduct. to deem something "unwlecome" inherently requires context, and thus how people are using it is absolutely relevant. in Martin's case, if he also participated in trash talk he is going to have a hard time arguing that trash talk was unwelcome because his behavior sends the signal that it is indeed welcome as he contributed to it.
BeastBeach is wrong in arguing that all words are acceptable in the workplace (or that no words should be disallowed).
Of course the comparison isn't relevant because I was using an irrelevant analogy to mock another irrelevant analogy... It doesn't differ in that "Unlawful harassment is a form of discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other federal authority." in sports just as much as any other job. What's the issue?
Pretty sure the key word in all of that is "unwelcome" and as we all know, Martin did not make it clear that it was unwelcome until he decided to leave the team. He in fact created the perception that the language being used was welcome by laughing about it/participating in the very locker room culture he supposedly had a problem with. Obviously that is based on what we have heard so far. If it comes out that he approached anyone to say that he was uncomfortable with said language then I would change my mind.
That has nothing to do with whether an individual can use any word in the workplace as they see fit. And why does he have to approach one of the players? He approached your team's GM saying he was "uncomfortable with the language" before leaving the team, why doesn't that count? Given Ireland's ridiculous advice I don't blame him for not going to the other players.
What exactly is "the workplace" and how do you know he used such words "in the workplace"? Wasn't it a voicemail to a friend from work? How is that "the workplace"? Define what we are talking about here because maybe when you try to do that you will realize why this is not a typical case of workplace harassment. When are these guys on the clock? When they are hanging out in strip clubs? And I don't know that it has been proven for sure that Martin told Ireland he was uncomfortable. Maybe you could link that?
It's a legal argument, I can't explain labor laws pertaining to workplace conduct including but not limited to harassment, to you. If they're holding a team meeting in a strip club then, yes, one player can file a complaint based on what is said at that meeting (and not necessarily to him, for legal purposes that's important to clarify). It's a pretty simple concept. I doubt Martin's agent inferred that he was comfortable. What else would he have said to Ireland, and are you specifically looking for Martin to use the word "uncomfortable"? Or are you saying you have a problem with Martin's agent, not Martin himself, contacting Ireland? (I highly doubt it, that would be idiotic).
the law doesn't state and would never even attempt to claim that there are any words that are not allowed, because if you define a specific word as specifically illegal, all a defense would have to do in any case that is harassing but uses another word is point to the fact that the word was not defined as illegal. the law is about broad concepts applied to protective classes, that are not allowed to be used in a harassing manner. you can be just as racially harassing without using a single racial epithet, so the specific words are not important. all words are acceptable if they are used in an acceptable manner. that can only be determined on a case by case basis. it is the context in which any word is used that determines if it is offensive and applies to those protective classes. how they are used dictates the context and whether they violate the law. what if you have a barbershop owned by young black men that call each other niggas all day without any intent to offend of harass one another. and that barbershop hires a white barber, who is offended and feels uncomfortable by the use. did they create a hostile or offensive environment for the white barber simply because a word that most people are afraid of and want to cry racism every time it is uttered was used and because it offended an employee not of that race? or does the intent dictate whether the environment is hostile offensive?
You're reading too much into diction. Here's what I'm actually saying (summary): Beach: Anything can be said in the workplace. Words are just words. Me: That's incorrect. I expect the summary to change as BB explains himself but that's where we're currently at. You can nitpick the phrase "that's incorrect" if you wish, I would thoroughly enjoy a diatribe focused on conjunctions. But, for the record, in no context is a racial epithet acceptable in the workplace. You can argue that it's technically okay until a complaint is filed, but even then you're incorrect in asserting that it's legally defensible. "Half-ngger" would never result in a decision siding with the employer and/or offender.
For one thing you keep repeating the fact that "half-nigger" was used in the workplace when it was left on a guy's personal voicemail. There is a difference. You insist on being condescending yet intentionally ignorant at the same time.
It's a good/applicable example because: 1. We don't really have exact quotes on any other supposed racial comments by Incognito (and if we did you'd cry foul about context). The voicemail is a direct quote providing context of a racial slur, and it reveals the use of a racial epithet in a non-friendly manner. That much is irrefutable. 2. Incognito claims that he left the voicemail because "the Dolphins told him toughen Martin up". Who employs Martin and Incognito? Would it happen to be the Miami Dolphins?
He sounds like the typical "do as I say, not as I do" white liberal. Context only matters when it benefits him.
Incognito is a WT POS borderline sociopath Martin is a puss who should've said "F this" and punched him in the face in front of the whole team. The whole thing is a sad (yet funny from our perspective) shitshow and I wish the JETS were playing Miami tomorrow, not Buffalo *btw I've worked more jobs than the Jamaicans in Living Color...... that includes White collar corporate Jobs, college professor and down and dirty construction jobs and a several in between...... :grin: :shit:
just wanted to say, that was a great in living color reference. you don't see that everyday. well done sir
