ESPN: Sam Darnold best young QB in the NFL

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Footballgod214, May 19, 2020.

  1. WarriorRB28

    WarriorRB28 Well-Known Member

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    I look at it as cost cutting hires but in the end it cheapens their entire presentation.
     
  2. WarriorRB28

    WarriorRB28 Well-Known Member

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    I've yet to see Darnold grab the bull by the horns the way Mayfield did in his rookie season. I've seen glimspes here & there but not a run like Mayfield had in his rookie season yet.

    Darnold is behind Mayfield & Allen & Jackson right now. Lamar Jackson is on top because of the team success Baltimore has had and his MVP, Allen is #2 because of the team success Buffalo has had, Cleveland is loaded so Mayfield could pull ahead soon.

    Darnold hasn't been dealt the best hand but we need production not excuses.
     
  3. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Alex Smith was definitely a dual threat in college. But he wasn't when he got to the NFL, for his wild first seven seasons in different systems and what not. So his ineffectiveness in most aspects of his game are irrelevant because he wasn't running a lot early on in the NFL. Regardless, like I said, I don't really like to look at him when trying to judge other quarterbacks. Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner and Steve Young are the only quarterbacks I can really think of that had any sustained success after a very poor start to his career. And Warner just wasn't in the league until he was 28 and Young was put on the shelf after he failed early. So he's tough to include.

    You're focusing too much on big season ending injuries. The idea is that hits erode skills and cause wear and tear on the body that is tough to completely qualify. Quarterbacks wear smaller shoulder pads than every other player on the field. They are usually a big thinner because their position and throwing position can become inhibited if they build up their chest and shoulders too much. They need to maintain flexibility and stay cut in their upper body not bulky like runningbacks.

    I think overtime, quarterbacks skills will start to erode as their body breaks down. Naturally, most athletes and specifically NFL players more than any, slow down in terms of speed. There's a reason runningbacks approach the graveyard at 27-28 and receivers into their early 30's. Hits and wear and tear is definitely a factor but so is foot speed.

    Don't forget. Scrambling around, running 15 yards in the backfield and then scooting up field for a 5 yard gain only to do at times an awkward slide with a linebacker falling on you (even if they draw a penalty) is a lot more wear and tear on the body than throwing a 15 yard out in the pocket.

    There's no question a quarterback that rushes 10 times a game gets hit more and puts more strain on his body. That's not really debatable. The debate is whether that affects their performance as they get older. You do not think so.

    Lamar Jackson can certainly evolve his game and should watch as much of Russell Wilson's game tape as possible. It's possible and he has a couple more years before he'll really have to look at slowing down his rushing ability and modifying his game. But it's going to be tough to keep up any sort of pace like this into his 30's. Wilson has never taken hits though. Which is why he is where he is with no signs of slowing down. Even early on in his career he was much much better at it than Lamar Jackson was. They had GB vs. Seattle from 2014 on a couple weeks ago and he was avoiding hits even in his youth in the playoffs because it's just the smart play rather than gain an extra yard and a half and have trailing defenders fall on him.
     
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  4. WarriorRB28

    WarriorRB28 Well-Known Member

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    I have serious doubts he can keep it up another year.

    I can't get his playoff performance against San Diego out of my head, Baltimore choked against Tenessee last year so right out of the gate he doesn't look like a special clutch playoff performer type QB to me.

    His style of play I don't think is sustainable long term.

    We'll see.
     
  5. WarriorRB28

    WarriorRB28 Well-Known Member

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    It's stupid to do so.

    The league has put all these rules in place to protect QBs for a reason. For coaches to put their QB in harm's way, for a QB to put himself in harm's way is mind boggling stupidity.

    Sam Darnold could end up having the longest career out of all these QBs because of his style of play IF the Jets build a wall around him and he gets the job done. I don't think there's any question Darnold is the most pure passing QB out of all the QBs drafted in 2018.

    BUT

    He has to go out there and prove he's a special player/get the job done (team success).
     
  6. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    He wasn't running as much early on because coaches tried to make Alex Smith something he wasn't ... a pocket passer. When he went to Reid, his scrambling never led to injuries which was the initial intent of this discussion, not one's success. All players get hurt, players played injured but dual threat QBs aren't getting hurt in today's game because they are scrambling, they are still out there active on game-day. If they are scrambling and do get hurt, it's because they are completely disregarding their body. Lamar has been coached not to take those hits Wentz / RG3 took. He's also slippery as shit and avoids those type of hits.

    It's absolutely more likely they get hurt by a blindside hit, just like normal pocket passers do. Do you remember how Alex got hurt? It was in the pocket. It's all about protecting yourself, and I don't see Lamar doing what Wentz did or what RG3 did. Everyone is susceptible to wear and tear ala Tony Romo, not just scrambling QBs. Andrew Luck same thing.

    https://www.pineneedlenews.com/single-post/2019/02/27/Reed-History-Shows-Mobile-Quarterbacks-Aren’t-More-Susceptible-to-Injuries
    https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/injury-proneness-running-qbs-russell-153302034.html

    1. Is your game evolving as you grow older?
    2. Are you sliding and running out of bounds to avoid unnecessary hits.

    So far Lamar has checked 1 and 2.
     
  7. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I mean I think there's an element of randomness to it. Eli ate blind side hit after blind side hit and made a living getting up after each of them without ever sustaining any true injury throughout his career. Some guys just can't take the beating. But over time quarterbacks that run take more of that beating. Maybe Lamar Jackson can eat the beating for 15 years (even if he starts to slide more - and I completely disagree that he's very protective of himself).

    It's kind of like boxers. Roy Jones Jr. continued to fight until he was 49 (last fight amazingly was just two years ago). He's fine. He doesn't even stutter every once in a while and he took a beating late in his career. Versus other boxers that retire in their late 30's and are absolutely punch drunk.
     
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  8. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    It's not stupid to do so. Lamar Jackson won the MVP award doing so. He wouldn't have done so standing in the pocket and throwing 40 times a game. He was on the best team in the league all year. They just ran into a perfect storm buzzsaw.

    Players need to play to their strengths and coaches need to coach to those strengths. Lamar Jackson's is running the ball (right now). He's obviously going to improve. He did from his rookie to now. He had more turnovers than completions his first rookie year playoff game vs. The Chargers. He was downright awful against that 7-8 man zone. And he made himself that much better.

    The question is whether his heavy running style can keep him upright.
     
  9. WarriorRB28

    WarriorRB28 Well-Known Member

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    That I agree with. Why it angered me when Geno refused to run the ball here when he clearly was a running QB.

    Running QBs don't have a long shelf life that's just the way it is. Run the ball with the RBs that's what they're there for.


    That I don't agree with.

    That statement ignores the other half of the equation the competition. They'll adjust to what Jackson & Baltimore did last season can Jackson & Baltimore counter and still be equally as effective?

    One reason truly GREAT players are great is their consistancy their ability to continue playing great despite what the competition does to counter their greatness.

    If Lamar Jackson improves upon what he did last year (league MVP) well then he's a HOF type player.

    We'll see.
     
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  10. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    But again, you are more likely to have a major hit to your career in the pocket then out of the pocket, not just because you run. As time goes on, and Lamar improves as a passer, you think he'll be running the same amount of designed runs? It's already a thought in his mind, but it is a hint of randomness to it, but I dont think its because you are running or a pocket passer. Are you a durable player?

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...n-envisions-running-less-than-he-did-in-2019/

    I've been on record saying Lamar has the highest upside out of anyone in the class, I think that statement remains true. Josh Allen is going to be another guy, will he last or not? So far he hasn't missed a game due to injury, he plays pretty out of control as well, hurdling defenders and what not.
     
  11. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the sentence I bolded. Mahomes has superior arm talent to Sam, was older and more poised/polished than Sam coming into the NFL. He probably wouldn't be as good as he is on KC with the talent around him and Reid as his HC, but I definitely think he would have been better and perhaps significantly better than Sam. If Bates and Gase had Jackson and allowed him to run, and/or designed the offense around him, it's possible that he could have performed better as well. He almost certainly wouldn't have if they didn't adjust their schemes to fit his talents, but if they had, even with the lousy OL, Jackson is so slippery and elusive that he might have been able to still run for a significant amount of yardage, and avoided more sacks than Sam and been able to hit some big plays with Anderson. I just don't think one can say with certainty one way or the other. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Different situations, different players with different skill sets, different offensive and coaching philosophies. If neither was significantly better than Sam, then that would have been on Bates and Gase imo.
     
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  12. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    We're not talking about major hits. We're talking about frequency of being hit and overall exertion week after week. Wear and tear on pocket passers and quarterbacks who do not run as frequently doesn't really happen minus any Chad Pennington arm weakening situations.

    However that was the knock on Cam Newton for the past year and a half. The wear and tear on his shoulder prevents him from having enough arm strength. It's the reason teams just loaded up the 1-15 yard range in between the numbers the way they used to do with Chad.
     
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  13. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    The initial discussion was are you more than likely to get hurt scrambling or being in the pocket and trends suggest you being a scrambling QB does not mean you are more likely to suffer an injury due to wear and tear (or major injury). Major injuries absolutely are included in that discussion, because again you are more likely to get hurt when you are in the pocket by blindside hits, Alex Smith, Joe Theismann, Tony Romo, the list goes on. Wear and tear happens with every player, QBs get hit in the pocket all of the time dude, some don't even know it's coming, those IMO are the WORST hits.

    How did Cam get his shoulder hurt? He didn't hurt it by scrambling, they said he got hurt when he threw an interception and was chasing the defender back and ultimately landed on his shoulder, he wasn't scrambling. Thats my point. Maybe if he scrambled and ran for a TD, perhaps that shoulder injury never happens.

    Cam prior to the injury was throwing the football better than he ever was, whats to say he doesn't come back in a year and repeat his 8 year run of playing pretty much every game?
     
    #53 101GangGreen101, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  14. Same DarnOld Jets

    Same DarnOld Jets Well-Known Member

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    orlovsky has been on sam's nuts for some time now
     
  15. Section 336

    Section 336 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that SD game was one of the worst QB displays I have ever seen.
     
  16. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    as much as i love sam. it's clear mahomes is the best young QB in the NFL if not the best overall
     
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  17. J-Raw24

    J-Raw24 Well-Known Member

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    He said in the past 3 years and since Mahomes wasn't drafted in that time frame he can't really be used to discredit the statement.
     
  18. TonyFtLaud

    TonyFtLaud Well-Known Member

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    Dont get those questioning Lamar Jacksons passing ability, while praising Darnolds.
    Jackson was often under pressure last year and his ability to run kept drives alive but his passing has improved greatly. His completion Percentage was significantly better than Darnolds ,66.1 to 61.9 and his interception percentage was practically half at 1.5 to Darnolds 2.9.
    As far as durability. Darnold has been banged up far more often than Lamar thus far through their short careers.
    Lamar has made significant improvements already, Sam will hopefully take a big step forward this year. Time will tell.
     
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  19. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    GTFOH. Clearly you werent a Jet fan when it was McElroy / Sanchez vs the Cardinals.
     
  20. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    What's the over under on Lamar tearing an ACL?
     

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