Defense

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Jojo, Sep 27, 2022.

  1. WilsonJetsFan

    WilsonJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good points here.

    Entering the season, I don't think any of us thought we were better than any of the first 8 teams on our schedule. That doesn't mean 0 wins, but it means that we only win those games in which we get lucky. Some board members were predicting we would only win 1-2 of the first 8 games. Some pundits were saying we would go winless in those games.

    Right now, we are right where all of those folks expected, and maybe even a little ahead at 1-2. We've done it despite losing our starting QB and a gaggle of OTs. The only thing that has changed is that the reasons why we expected to lose these 8 games have transformed from abstract concepts to specific, real-world moments-on-the-field. That's not much of a reason to throw a tantrum, but anyone is welcome to throw one if it makes them feel better. But for those who struggle emotionally to watch the team lose as many of these first 8 games as we all expected them to lose, you are probably in for a rough ride these next five games.
     
  2. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    Sure it does.

    Every team in the league has young/new players. Every team in the league has new staff. Every team in the league deals with injuries. Trying to justify poor play because of things every team deals with isn't valid.

    We're 32nd in defensive DVOA so far this season, dead last. That's after finishing last season with the worst defense in NYJ history. The defense deserves no benefit of the doubt. I'm willing to change my mind but I see no compelling reason to do so yet.
     
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  3. WilsonJetsFan

    WilsonJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Calling something an excuse makes it invalid? That's a pretty colossal logic fail.
     
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  4. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not ready to toss in the towel and write 2022 off as a 'developmental year'. F that. Yeah, we have a young team, but not on Defense. Most of our defenders have been in the league playing defense for YEARS. Joyner, Reed, Whitehead, CJ Mosely, Quinen, on and on. We have ONE rookie, Sauce. The rest of the D starters are ALL VETS. They don't need to develop; they need to get on the SAME PAGE. Oh, and tackle. They need to tackle.
     
  5. cval

    cval Well-Known Member

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    Young teams get better as the season goes on. Let's see if this team does.
     
  6. Brook!

    Brook! Soft Admin...2018 Friendliest Member Award Winner

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    I am starting to think maybe Saleh isn't the defensive wizard we all thought he was. @HomeoftheJets had a good post about Saleh's defense in SF and I think only once his team was ranked high and that was when he had an elite pass rusher. Other seasons were meh.
     
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  7. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    It's an excuse when it's something every team has to deal with. Just like when people try to use COVID as the reason JD botched his first draft. Every team in the league dealt with COVID and the revised scouting schedule that came with it.
     
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  8. HomeoftheJets

    HomeoftheJets Well-Known Member

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    Unless that post was a long time ago and I don't remember it, it was someone else who posted it.
     
  9. WilsonJetsFan

    WilsonJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Ulbrich led a bottom-six defense last year. But we also had some horrible luck with defensive stars getting injured, and we were thin on talent to begin with. This year, we are pretty healthy on D, and we got huge upgrades in both FA and the draft. We don't have the top talent in the league, but if our D is at the bottom of the league come mid-season, then we need a mid-season change of DC, and I wouldn't wait to finish out the season.

    I do think he deserves some time to get everything to gel given the enormous overhaul in defensive personnel. Also, we've played some very good teams to start the year. But we do need to see a quick turnaround to at least mid-tier status given the talent we have on defense.

    As for Saleh, he bears some blame for the poor defense, but he also deserves some credit for the fact that our offense is top 10 in YPG despite being down a QB and a bunch of OTs, and our special teams is looking solid too. That's solid progress in 2/3 of the game. The other 1/3 sucks, but I give him a longer leash than some because (a) there is progress, and (b) players seem drawn to him, which is important in continuing to get free agents without overpaying.
     
  10. WilsonJetsFan

    WilsonJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully, you're missing simple logic: Calling something an excuse doesn't mean it's invalid. Otherwise, all I have to do to respond to your post is say "your making excuses," and suddenly your arguments are all invalid. That's just stupid. Some excuses are perfectly valid. Your points would be better received if you would stop using the word "excuse" and just explain why you think someone's arguments are incorrect. If they are incorrect, then they are incorrect for substantive reasons, not because you slap the "excuse" label on them.

    On your one substantive point: Not every team has an equal number of new faces or youth in a given year. This year, we have a lot more new starting faces than most teams, and we are starting a lot more first- and second-year players than most teams. It absolutely takes a while for everyone to get on the same page. You can put whatever pejorative label on it you wish, but if you don't think we're at a disadvantage to other teams because we have greater numbers of young and new starters, then I don't think you're being realistic.
     
  11. boozer32

    boozer32 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree the Jets just aren't coached well. I think Douglas has done a great job getting talent on the roster. The coaches aren't doing their job and having them prepared weekly. The Jets just look awful every game. Watch other teams they may not be as good as the Jets but they play better and you can see the difference. They understand their responsibilities. The offense looks actually competent. The Jets look like they just learned about football.
     
  12. boozer32

    boozer32 Well-Known Member

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    Nice KGB propaganda post. The Jets are awful and trying to sugarcoat it is not helping. They should have beaten the Bengals even with Flacco. But the coaches who are equally or maybe even worst than we thought. Ulrich and Lefleur should be canned immediately. I say immediately because they will not get better so why waste everyone's time and effort. Saleh will probably stay till the season's end but he should be fired 1 minute after the season is over. He is Todd Bowles 2.0. There is no progression from him and the Jets actually look worst than last year with better talent.
     
  13. boozer32

    boozer32 Well-Known Member

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  14. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Scraping for uplifting stats doesn't put points up on the scoreboard...

    Field goals aren't enough when our defense is shit.
     
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  15. REVISion

    REVISion Well-Known Member

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    I've been a fan a long time man, I've seen this movie many times.

    I'm not saying this is you - I've seen you make a lot of good points - but there is a certain segment of our fanbase, and it's a large segment, that refuses to view the Jets even close to objectively. They view the team through the lens of what they want to happen, not through the lens of what is most likely to happen given the bulk of the evidence.

    When we don't add enough new talent during the offseason and underperform, they claim no coach could possibly win with the players we have. When we do add a lot of new talent and still underperform, they say the team needs "time to gel", which is utter bullshit. Good players are generally good right away, they've been playing football their entire lives. Just look at Garrett Wilson.

    They claim others are overreacting to early season struggles, despite those people almost always being proven correct as the year progresses.

    I know these people are idiots because I used to be one of them. At a certain point you've seen the same mistakes, and yes, excuses, too many times to be fooled again. Good teams don't make excuses, there's no need to because they play well. We are the least successful franchise in the NFL over the last 12 years, I know failure when I see it because I've seen a whole lot of it.

    To end on a lighter note - I think LaFleur's done a pretty good job. My gripes are with Saleh and Ulbrich.
     
    #35 REVISion, Sep 28, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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  16. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    "Plenty of signs?" Really? What do you see that the Ravens, Browns and Bengals were unable to deal with? How has this "progress" revealed itself? Try to explain without going into detail about what happened nearly a half century ago and basing it on "hope". A defense that is "mostly playing well" does not give up 27 points a game.
     
    #36 Ralebird, Sep 28, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  17. Jets79

    Jets79 Well-Known Member

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    My take is not so much a tantrum but frustration at the lack of real progress.

    I was one of the people thinking 0-4 was a very real probability….we just NEVER beat the Ravens and Steelers, the Bengals were not going to overlook us after losing last year, and the Browns are also just a better team than we are…honestly all four are better.

    so I came into this season expecting to lose them all honestly, and maybe as an upside we’d sneak one win out. Great…we did that.

    but the reason I’m so frustrated is not that we lost…it’s that we lost in the same ways, by double digits where we were not competitive….we got very lucky with the Browns game and all credit to the team for not giving up. But we lost by double digits YET again. Our defense still can’t get off the field on third down to save their life. We can’t sack a damn QB. We keep having miscommunications on D. I think our coaching is bad on D, not sure we have the players to run the scheme Saleh wants to run…there’s no Bosa or Mack or Von Miller here to make it all go. And I hate coaches that are married to their scheme instead of scheming to their players’ strengths

    On O my frustrations are more with the state of the OL, which I totally get has been decimated by injury, but I’m super frustrated at the approach….we NEVER should have gone into training camp relying on Becton to start 17 games. That was NEVER gonna happen and many of us here called it out BEFORE the fact. Not hindsight. We also had Fant coming off surgery. And the best we could do was a 37 year old replacement. I like JD overall but I really feel he mismanaged the OL, and in his third/fourth year, our OL should be a strength by now. And it’s far from it.

    so the frustrations are real. Yes I think many here feel the talent level is getting better…but the results are still the same old shit…no D, can’t sack the QB, can’t get off the field on third down, and on O we are moving the ball better but we can’t score enough.

    the more things change, the more they stay the same I guess…
     
  18. MoWilkBeast

    MoWilkBeast Well-Known Member

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    For those wanting Saleh to take up play calling duties, how much difference do you think it would make? And are you then going to complain that he's just a jumped up coordinator and not on top of the whole game, just like with Rex and Bowles? Not sure you can have both. And frankly I'm happy that he has chosen to delegate and to try to stay on top of the overall game like a HC at this point.

    While there are issues defensively I'm not sure they are as bad as previous years. Teams aren't moving the ball against the Jets easily or quickly generally. The D are getting turnovers, they are getting the opposition into 3rd and long(ish) fairly regularly, just not getting off the field anywhere near enough. They need to convert and stop making the big errors in this phase. Thats what the CS should be focusing on imo. I do have more of a problem with the miscommunication in the secondary. Once is unfortunate, twice a worry, three times is a problem. That all 3 breakdowns have been very similar is even more concerning and needs addressing.

    As for defensive rotation, I get the frustration. I've seen lots of people quoting snap counts and making the leap that the D is therefore weaker. I've yet to see anyone quantify this and analyze what the actual impact on the D is. How many more yards per rush, yards per pass? How much less pressure, what impact it has on QB completion, first downs given up or even points? It just seems to be an accepted leap of faith that the D is weaker because of rotation, and massively so. I'm not convinced that playing Quinnen 95% of snaps is going to make him or the D better. He's good, but not Donald in any case.
     
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  19. cval

    cval Well-Known Member

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    This is typical of first time head coach that was a coordinator. More on defense than offense for some reason but they don't want to take away the responsibility. Probably because thye did not want to when they were coordinators.

    Something needs to change. We cannot have the worst defense in the league again.

    First time head coaches should have some experience as coordinators but Saleh decided to go opposite. That was.not his best call.
     
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  20. Noam

    Noam Well-Known Member

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    It is about context and using your eyes and not looking at stats.
    1. Football is complimentary. The defense was more than good enough to win in games 1 and 3. The problem was the offense not the defense in these 2 games.
    2. Look at the teams we played. Not only are they quite hard to defend all 3 have great offenses. L/ Jackson neutralizes any rush. The Browns have an amazing running game and are a challenge for anyone. The Bengals playing a desperation game with Joe Burrow. Burrow neutralized our pass rush with quick throws and scrambles. The bottom line is no matter how well our defense plays if Burrow and Jackson are playing well they are almost unstoppable.
    3. The defense is young with 6-7 new starters. There will be mistakes. it's a growing process.
    4. Using our eyes we can see the defense is already substantially better than last year. Our 2 corners are playing lights out. DJ Reed is really really good. Our run defense is light years ahead of last year. Kwon Alexander is a big upgrade. Q is having a monster year. lawson might only be 80 percent but he is having a good year. JJ has played very well for a rookie.
    5. There is a lot here to be excited about. If you look at the numbers maybe it does not look great bit if you use your eyes you can see this defense is miles ahead of last year.
    6. When will it get better? Besides this week against the Steelers, it won't anytime soon. Rodgers, Wilson, Miami and Buffalo are on the immediate schedule. All juggernaut offenses that no one can stop. We don't have the luxury of playing the Bears and Seahawks and other bad offenses at least until late in the season. We play a murderers row of QBs this year and the only thing that is likely to make our defense look better is our offense playing well enough to keep them off the field and playing with a lead rather than from behind. The same can probably be said for our offense. That they will play better when our defense plays better. It is an offense that does not work well from behind. It sounds like a catch-22 but football is complimentary and improvements on either side of the ball will make the others job a lot easier.

    The short version is we are a lot closer to looking like a decent defense than last year. Maybe not a high bar but still a big change.
     
    #40 Noam, Sep 28, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022

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