What about the year before when Peyton was still able to carve up the defense in the AFCCG regardless of how dominant Revis was? That said its just a joke of a list. I'd take 0 Jets players on it and have it filled with more bums like Channing Crowder as long as we were to see the Super Bowl.
The equation is simple because you're looking at it in simple terms. The problem here is that you're only concerned with the matchup of Jets vs Texans. In this situation, yes, Revis is more valuable. In the majority of other possible matchups for either team, Andre is more valuable. When the Jets play the Pats, Revis will neutralize their best WR, say, Wes Welker, even though I think it's Tate that actually commands Revis. Nonetheless, assume that Revis completely shuts down, I'm talking zero catches, whatever WR he is facing. You can cross them out and the game is 10 on 10. The Jets no longer have their best player in the equation. The Pats do, they still have Tom Brady on the field. Unless a team's #1 WR is its most important/valuable player, Revis has limited value, because all he can do is neutralize the WR put in front of him. Andre Johnson is the most valuable player on the field in more matchups/situations than Revis is. You're also overrated the concept of shutdown. Revis still gives up catches. He just reduces a #1 WR to a #3-4 WR, which happens to be more than any other CB in the league can do. PS I'm sorry for beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm pulling an nyjunc here. I'm right and will argue it from every possible angle until everyone accepts it
U guys crack me up... 1 minute you're bitching that he should be higher on the Best Player in the NFL list... Then you're crying when the guy wants to be paid like the best @ his position...lol... oh the irony here is priceless
Well to be fair the monetary issues were around Asomugah being incredibly overpaid. Having Revis being the top paid corner is more than fair, but the problem is when the top paid corner is drastically overpaid so youd as a result have to drastically drastically overpay revis, who was already under contract for multiple more years
Which I understand but That's an easy argument when you think that a CB's salary is too high. So,"to be fair" we are now talking about a list of the best in the NFL regardless of position. Guys want him Higher that the best WR's & Players in the game, that IMO changes the whole argument based on CB salary...which was my point.... ....if it weren't for that, I'd agree w/the Asomugah/Al Davis defense
I have to agree with this logic. Revis is easily the best player at his position, nobody will argue that. But the most he can do is turn it into a 10 v 10 game. And when a teams #1 WR isn't even that great, say you're facing the Rams, how valuable is Revis? I understand that he allows the defense to do some different things, like commit a safety to blitzing or helping double someone else, but I don't think he is as valuable to the Jets defense as Andre Johnson is to the Texans offense. Johnson can dominate probably every CB in the league minus a very select few in 1 on 1 situations, he might be a beast for 14 or 15 games out of the season on his side of the field. Revis may only have a receiver worthy of being covered by him in 8 games on their schedule that season. I don't want to take anything away from Revis and what he does, but I personally think that a dominant WR is more valuable to a team than a dominant CB over the course of a season. If the season was one game and the only team the Jets had to play were the Texans, than ok, Revis wins. Otherwise, I think Johnson would be more valuable.
Well in theory he shouldn't be as valuable to the Jets defense as Andre Johnson is to the Texans. Except what were forgetting is that the Texans offense is littered with weapons. They had the best halfback in the nfl last year in foster, a qb who lead the nfl in passing yards only a year or 2 (or 3) ago, a beast of a tight end in owen daniels, and a pretty damn good #3 target in Kevin Walter. Where as look at the jets passing defense 2 years ago or whatever. Before Revis rose to power we were one of the WORST passing defenses in the nfl ( I wanna say like 3 years ago). And yet the last 2 years weve been fucking beast and Revis is overwhelmingly the largest reason why. Without AJ the Texans would still have a pretty god damn potent offense, without Revis this defense would have more than a problems. Cromartie obviously helps a bit but we all saw last year that he could only have significant success against bigger more physical recievers (ie Randy Moss), but he would likely struggle a bit against quicker ones. I could be wrong but didnt Garcon get over 150 receiving yards against Cro in the playoffs ? anyway
And that is why I don't have a problem with seeing Brady and Manning above Revis. Thats an understatement. Revis can take out the best WRs in the NFL where as most teams would require double teaming them. He instantly saves having an extra defender. That extra defender can be used to double cover the opponents #2, or used as an extra blitzer/safety. With the exception of maybe Namdi, no other player in the NFL gives u that option. I do agree that WR is a more important position than CB, but Revis plays corner to the extent that he becomes more valuable for the reason I just mentioned. When I say shutdown, I don't mean giving up zero catches. Revis had, does, and will continue to give up catches. But the affect is neutralized. Giving up a 10 yard catch while the opponent is down by two scores with less than 3 minutes left doesn't really count. Giving up 10 yards on 3rd and 15 also is a victory for Revis. On stats, it may look good for the WR. But in reality, its a failed 3rd down conversion as long as the opponent didn't get in to a FG range with the catch. A quick snap and pass for 3 yards also is a victory for Revis. So there are situations where Revis can give up a catch and it still wouldn't be considered a failed assignment. Its a difference of opinion really. Here's a scenario. We lose Santonio, Edwards, and Cromartie. Andre and Revis' conracts somehow become null and they become FA, who would u pick between the two? You have a desperate need at corner along with WR.
If Revis played the whole year and wasn't injured they might have had him #3, but this was not his best year so even at #8 he was lucky. Peyton and Brady were an easy 1-2, but Peyton should always be #1.
This was the best players of 2010 going into 2011, if you REALLY judge Manning's season he should probably be lower. He threw 17 picks, at least 3 of them lost his team any chance of a comeback. I don't think there is any possible way to put Manning over Brady unless you're going by a regular season career list. 2010 -> 2011 is no contest though. When you say "but Peyton should always be #1." you are admitting that you will ignore stats, achievments, and value at all times in this discussion because of your personal distaste for one player over another.
And that is why the Texans have been so successful as compared to the Jets the past few seasons, with that dominant offense of theirs. #1 WR. Stud QB who throws for over 4500 yards. One of the top RBs in the league last year. No wonder they win with such stars at such important positions. Wait. The Texans have never had a winning record. Maybe if they had a CB that cover somebody they would win some games, particularly the games that matter. You have this one wrong. WR is probably the least important position on the field. Look at the teams that have titles the past 10 years. They won mainly based on defensive play or an offense that had many receiving options and not one dominant receiver - Baltimore, New England (three times), Tampa, Pittsburgh (twice), Indy, Giants, New Orleans and the Pack. Defense, OL, and QB are the positions that win championships. Receivers and Running Backs are along for the ride. I'll take a shut down corner or an elite LB, or a pass rushing DE, or a run stuffing DT or a top flight OL over a WR any day.
It takes a historic level defense to win without a passing game. The Bears had one. The Ravens had one. It takes a historic level offense to win without a defense. The Colts had one (and a thoroughly underrated defense). The Rams had one. The rest had.. balance! Giants, Steelers, Pats, Packers... all had excellent passing games. The success of the Texans has nothing to do with WR vs CB. The Jets as a team, on the whole, are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Texans. Yes they had a ton of YARDS but were barely above average in POINTS. And their defense was incredibly bad. The key is to not have an elite receiver, it is to have an elite multi-option passing game. And none of your arguments about history or winners or whatever do anything to argue my point that one great WR is more likely to greater impact a game than one CB.
Drafting a team from scratch, I choose Revis because he's younger, and his difference from average player at that position. Elite corners are scarcer than elite WRs, I can get a WR next round. For the Jets, I choose Andre because we have Rex Ryan. Pretty much no matter who we have, Rex will manage a respectable D. Sanchez and Shotty are not capable of producing growth that would equal what Andre Johnson would bring to the offense.
The Colts won in 06 because their defense played lights out in the playoffs after stinking it up in previous years. The Pats won their three SBs with pedestrian passing games and mediocre receivers at best. Explain to me their excellent passing games in 01, 03 and 04. Who was their elite WR? Since they brought in Moss in 07 and changed philosophies and became an offensive juggernaut predicated on the pass, they have failed to win. The Giants won not because of their passing game but because the DL harassed Brady all day. The Steelers won repeatedly with their defense. Roethlesberger had one of the worst if not the worst passing days in SB history in 2005, but the Steelers won anyway. The Steelers in 08, the Saints in 09 and the Pack last year all scored defensive TDS which led to wins in close SB games. Yes, a team needs balance to win, but elite WRs do not dominate a game. A WR touches the ball maybe 5-6 times a game that has 120+ plays. A player does not dominate a game by touching the ball 5 times a game. Sorry, but I completely disagree with your analysis of the WR position and the relative value of Johnson vs other top position players, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. Revis is far more valuable than Johnson. Why is that the elite WRs of this era have few if any rings?????
This has strayed off too far. I agree with you much more often than I don't, but you're doing a lot of reasoning with facts that are progressively less relevant to the thread. Like... individual Super Bowl games? Who cares, it takes 18-19 games to get to that point. --- The positions of WR and CB on the whole are equal (I'd think they have to be because they face one another) and less important than QBs, LB, and both sides of the trenches. important. I'm talking about the impact of single players. I think the elite WRs today not having rings is more coincidence than anything. Most of the elites of the past do. I'd consider both Harrison and Wayne to be elite level WRs, partially products of Manning, partially products of endlessly rehearsed rhythm and work ethic. Moss SHOULD have one, but they lost the one game they couldn't. Andre has never had a complete team around him. Roddy White will probably win one eventually. Greg Jennings is a borderline elite.
