Daniel Jones

Discussion in 'National Football League' started by Brook!, Oct 12, 2019.

  1. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    Would you say the fumbles/TOs are alarming yet? In the beginning of this thread I mentioned that the TOs were alarming and you said it was too early for that. I think we are about 7-8 games after that post. Just curious where you stand on it.

    I think before the bye week he was on pace for 32 TOs in his first 16
     
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  2. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    Just reread this thread from the beginning. This would be Rex tripling down on Jones over Darnold. Not doubling btw.. my mistake.
     
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  3. statjeff22

    statjeff22 2008 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award Winner

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    Every time Rex insists that Jones will be better than Darnold I feel better about Darnold. When has that clown ever been right about a quarterback?
     
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  4. NYJFOREVER

    NYJFOREVER Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Sorry Rex, your opinion doesn't matter in the slightest.
     
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  5. HomeoftheJets

    HomeoftheJets Well-Known Member

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    I figure Jones is going to fix the fumbles this offseason. It has to be easier to fix those than accuracy or learning to read a defense or something like that.
     
  6. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    I think you had and have a good take on it. If he doesn’t get it worked out this offseason it could destroy his future. It’s happening to much to be a fluky stat.
     
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  7. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    Like Homeofjets said — it’s definitely easier to work on ball control than accuracy issues where you’re just throwing the ball into the arms of the other team. I remember Sams biggest knock coming out of college was his fumbles and he’s been exceptional when it comes to that. Just something you need to focus on and put the time in to fix. Lets see if he can do it.
     
  8. MJK

    MJK Well-Known Member

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    Rex is the guy who thought it was a good idea to get away from ground and pound and open up the offense for Mark Sanchez...as if he was Peyton Manning.
     
  9. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a difficult thing to work on because it's incredibly difficult to simulate getting hit in the pocket when you aren't expecting it without well getting hit. Which no coach wants to do with their quarterback in practice, young or old.

    Fumbling in the pocket feels like a very difficult thing to fix and it really amazes me that more quarterbacks don't fumble more.

    The Giants really need to clean house now before they let Jones go another year with the clown show routine that is Shurmur and Gettleman. I checked into some Giants message boards after we traded Leonard Williams and they really think the football apocalypse is upon them.

    I don't blame them.
     
  10. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    They can drill holding the ball with 2 hands while in the pocket, But you are right that they can't actually allow Jones to get hit so it is different than in game reps obviously. All I know is, it definitely needs to be worked on. You can't turn the ball over 32 times in 16 games.
     
  11. statjeff22

    statjeff22 2008 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award Winner

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    I would be interested to know whether any quarterback has ever corrected this kind of problem. Are there any QBs who had terrible fumbling problems in the NFL and cured it? (Supposed problems in college don't count - the pro game is completely different unless you're Kyler Murray.) I know there are a few running backs who seemed to fix the problem (Tiki Barber comes to mind), but fumbling while you're running ahead is very different from fumbling when standing still and hit from the side or behind. I suspect that fixing it would be a lot more difficult than it might seem, and is a lot more about pocket awareness (which I don't believe can be taught) than concentrating on holding on to the ball.
     
  12. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
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    Here is a list of the top 60 QBs who have fumbled the most and the column to the right under FR is the amount recovered by their own team (any player). Not sure if you are interested in this at all. I'm not sure how to compare them on profootball reference so see if their was an improvement over time.
     
  13. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Jay Cutler comes to mind and he didn't correct it too well, posting his highest fumble total at 12 in his 9th season.

    I just looked at the single season fumble leaders and it's tough to see a trend among players and then to go back and remember if it is/was a huge issue for them or they just got whacked a bunch. Kirk Cousins seems to fumble a lot in the grand scheme of other active players that appear on the list, but I don't know if it's a huge problem.

    It seems like a lot of quarterbacks have outlier seasons where they have double digits fumbles at least once in their career.

    Jones is the only quarterback I can remember where it's plagued him so terribly that it can hold his career back.
     
  14. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    @statjeff22 I'm at work so I just did a quick look over (will look up more later):

    No one has even been nearly as bad as Jones as with his fumbles (1.4/game)

    The 3 closest players who can relate to Jones are:
    Foles who averaged 1.14 fumbles/game his rookie year then .46 fumbles/game.
    Josh Freeman went from 1.00 fumbles/game his rookie year then .56 fumbles/game.
    Blaine Gabbert went from .93 fumbles/game his rookie year then .44 fumbles/game.
    Carson Wentz went from .88 fumbles/game his rookie year then .74 fumbles/game.

    EDIT --

    So the rookies who fumbled the least their rookie year are as followed:
    Orton - .07 to .26
    McCoy - .13 to .68
    Teddy - .23 to .31
    Dalton - .25 to .32
    Cam - .31 to .43
    Winston - .38 to .84
    Wilson - .38 to .61
    Ryan - .38 to .38

    First number is fumbles/game and 2nd number is average fumbles right now.

    Average fumbles/game for a QB is .42/game
     
    #74 dawinner127, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
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  15. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Mark Sanchez would fumble every 5 minutes. where is he on these lists?
     
  16. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    So I think we can summarize this in saying that most quarterbacks on the all time fumbles lists are long time quality starters who are victims of the stat compiling over time as it's just going to happen from time to time.

    And then the guys who fumbled a lot earlier in their career tend to be crappy players who were turnover prone anyway so it's tough to extrapolate the data over a career.

    Basically, if he doesn't fix it he will be Josh McCown in a best case scenario.
     
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  17. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    There was also a strong correlation between sacks + fumbles (obviously). Winston for example his rookie year was sacked 27 times in 16 games. Since then he has been sacked 131 times in 51 games. Hence why is fumble rate is almost 3x higher than his rookie year.
     
  18. statjeff22

    statjeff22 2008 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award Winner

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    Yes, this quick analysis (which I appreciate, guys) seems to suggest that the ceiling is someone like Foles. The irony would be something - do the Giants go from a guy who was a mediocre compiler with two magical Super Bowl runs to someone else who looks like someone who is mediocre other than a magical Super Bowl run?
     
  19. dawinner127

    dawinner127 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully there are absolutely no magical super bowl runs in Jones though! LOL. If you told me that the ceiling of a player like Jones would be Foles, I am going elsewhere in the draft and if Burrows was there for my pick in round 1, I would take him.
     
  20. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I guess it's a question if you'd be willing to trade 15 years, 6 playoff births (four one and done's) for two Super Bowl titles. The Giants fans wanted Eli's head for the first couple years. And then you have to weigh if you think Jones can give you that


    I think he's shown enough to be encouraged of him as a passer. The Giants offensive line has not been very good, but I also think they're much improved this year in terms of pass protection. Jones hangs on to the ball for an awfully long time. I don't know if that's habit or if it's because no one is open.

    Also, Saquon Barkley has been nowhere near himself following the injury. I don't know if he's still hurt or what, but he came back from a high ankle sprain that put him on crutches in two weeks.

    The Giants are similar to us in being so devoid of talent due to bad drafting that it's tough to tell how anyone looks. And their defense is horribly coached with bad tacklers all over the place.
     

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