I suppose you could say that, but much the same applies to Kimo and Ellis....average to below average. So let's not dump the whole blame on him
I have to agree that the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 which is making guys play out of position is very very stupid. That's something you would expect from Herm but not from a supposedly .smart guy like Mangini. I don't get it, especially after he said he was going to utilize the players strengths. He switched to the 3-4 because of what?
at the end of they day its still football. you still have to play defense and be accountable as a player on the team..and the majority on the guys on the defense have not done this . 4-3/3-4 you still have to shed blockers, you still have to cover, you still have get pressure on the qb. switching front is no excuse to play this bad.
I think he stinks. You can put anyone else at nose, at get the same amount of productivity. Did I think this two years ago...NO. Does he have good linemen around him...Not really. I do not think he is 100% healthy either, but if he is playing regularly, you can not use that as an excuse. He is a high draft pick that everyone was looking at on draft day, but really has never panned out. There are some glimpses, but no consistensy.
look, this is not highschool anymore. you cant just switch guys around and then say "well its still only football". this is the nfl. you cant expect a guy like casey hampton to become a dominating 4-3 DE. he would flat out suck. on the other hand you cant expect a 4-3 DE like freeney to become a dominating 3-4 DE or NT for that matter. this is NOT madden. mangini makes no sense. he came here and just to show everyone he's the boss he had to switch our 4-3 defense into a 3-4 defense. it makes no sense at all but hey, it worked out for new england
D rob wasnt that great in the 4-3 defense.. you said it urself needs Big dT beside him to take all the attention from him to do good .Great Dts dominate with or without help. this is a #4 pick he was brought here to be dominant to be the next sapp. this guy isnt better than sapp now.
There's a difference from being built around and needing something build before you can do something. D-Fat is a complementary player at best. It's true that he is "playing out of position", but it's also true that whenever he HAS been playing in position he still hasn't been particularly great. You need to at least show something for people to believe in you. He's probably going to be moved to DE for the rest of the season, Kimo was utterly worthless and Moore has played well in spots at the NT. Ellis has been less than stellar as well. You're right that this is the NFL and you can't just switch positions and expect people to dominate, but there's a huge difference from Ray Lewis in a 3-4 and D-Fat in the 3-4, even though both were out of position, Lewis still showed something. Great players still make plays, they still show that they'd be great if not for some other problem. D-Rob simply does nothing to make you think that even if he was playing in a different scheme that he'd dominate. He gets pushed back like every single play, it's so stupid. I don't see any intensity or anything, at least if I saw him trying I'd lay off him, but it's ridiculous. I thought it was Herm's fault that D-Rob was so lax, but I really think this guy just simply is not cut out for the NFL. His weight simply is not an excuse, he doesn't show me anything on technique or effort. We're probably going to have a radically different front-7 next year, regardless of what scheme we will use. I don't think Ellis and D-Rob can cut it. Kimo will probably retire. We'll get back two large bodies at NT next year, but who knows if we can get anything out of them. Vilma should be better with an NT in front of him though, he's got a G in his face on every single play so I can't fault him too much. Remember, this was a 3 year plan all along. Year 1 we tried to fix the offense, so that we could at least stay in most of our games. Year 2 we fix the defense, so we have a shot against the better teams. Year 3 we put it all together, and start competing seriously. I don't know if the offense is fully fixed, we'll see in the next few weeks if Chad is the answer, if he isn't, we roll the dice on Clemens and Year 2 is spent grooming the QB of the future as well as the defense. Either way, it's probably going to be another year before we really see what Mangini's plan is. Just sit back and relax. Enjoy the fact that we are competitive right now, even though we don't have any of the right tools. That is a hell of a coaching job, I can't believe people are busy insulting Mangini for it. I can't believe you honestly think that it's just a scheme problem, especially since we've mixed the 4-3 in during games, and a few weeks ago we were mostly in 4-3.
Bullshit, he was a great player in our 4-3 defense (04) and even in 05 when he had that garbage NT next to him he dominated at times but had to fight through a lot of injuries (Knee, Hand). See the D# player of the week award after the Bucs game. I have no clue what games you were watching but Moore just plain sucked. Watch the Patriots game and you'll see yourself. Why are you comparing Ray Lewis to Robertson? I mean you can say "well VILMA should have more of an impact if you look at Ray Lewis in 03" but you cant compare Robertson to Ray Lewis. Size doesnt really matter when playing LB. Robertson is a 300 lbs pass rushing DT we are lining up at NT to push back three ~320 lbs O-linemen. Thats another ridiculous thing to say. "He gets pushed back every single play", seriously, do you watch any Jets games at all or are you just mad at Robertson? Did he ran over your dog or something? When you have about 3 guys running into you how in the hell are you going to push them back? ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE. And then you have these horrible guys like Oelhoffen and Ellis next to you, they cant even handle 1 on 1 matchups. And yet you're calling out Robertson again... There was nothing to fix on our offense. Our best players got hurt, thats why we struggled. Not because our offense sucked... Our defense was NOT the area we needed to improve the most. We made the Playoffs in 04 because of our defense. Basically every team that makes the playoffs makes it mostly because of their defense. We had NO offense in 05 and our banged up defense still looked good out there. Chad is not. His noodle arm will not last much longer plus he makes way too much money for an average starting QB with no arm. You expect Robertson to play like a hall of famer because of his cap hit but its obviously okay for a guy like Pennington to screw up and still make the kind of money he's making right now. A 6 million bonus if he starts another game? are you f*ckin kidding me?
I understand that but he wa healthy in '04 and great, he was injured last year and he is healthy this year but is playing out of position. we saw what he could do in '04 but injuries last year and coaching decisions this year have held him back.
DRob was never "Great" in the 4-3. He had a pretty good season in 04'. DRob dominated in 05'? When!? The only game DRob "dominated" a game was I belive 04' against Buffalo where he destroyed Bledsoe like nothing.. BallHawk...I don't quite understand how you defend DRob so much for pretty much NOT living up to his hype at all. Yet you trash Justin Miller in just his 2nd season as if he's been in the league as long as Robertson...
I can't honestly say I know enough to comment on whether the scheme is right or wrong for him, but my observation has been that on an awful lot of pass plays, he stands straight up and makes no effort at all to penetrate. Just pathetic effort all around. And I notice it several times a game. I mean, it almost looks like he's hanging out waiting for the screen pass.
Remember the Bucs game in 05? Defensive player of the week? No of course you dont... Robertson has been switched to NT while Miller is still playing CB and he cant even beat out a late round rookie for the starting job. Excuse me for bashing Miller because of that.
Oh yeah because last season was so good. Good for him, you mention 1 game in a bad 05' year, lemme hear the "he was next to a 270 pound DT." excuse...For a guy deemed "Baby Sapp" he hasn't done half of what Sapp has done. "Can't Nobody Block Me." No DRob, "Can't everyone block you?" So, for a guy who has started 4 years in this league as the #4 overall pick, he's done ok right? You give so many excuses for him when in reality he just is not THAT good. Miller deserves his bashings, Robertson deserves more with the hype and where he was selected in the draft, considering what the Jets had to give up to get him.
Shall I explain it for you? The 3 4 is linebacker dominated. the 4 3 is not. That has two ramifications. 1. Salary Cap....Better than Average DE's suck up a lot of Cap room. (think Ellis/Abraham....) 2. Supply, and demand. With most teams playing the 4/3 D linemen which are hard to come by to begin with are in tremendous demand, relative to supply. Linebackers OTOH, come far easier.... 3. So, suck it up now, build the Base, and then upgrade going forward, breaking in one guy at a time, rather than 11.
Oh, so now that i proved you wrong its "he still hasnt done half of what Sapp has done" he was awesome once he had a chance to do what we drafted him for. anywho im not even trying to bash miller, but its just funny to see how so many people give him a free pass for not developing because he's still young, he still needs time to develope etc. and the same guys on the other hand want robertson to dominate. the guy just switched to NT, and now he's switching to DE again, he's only 24 and you guys still expect him to dominate everywhere like he's a machine or something
- Michael Vick doesnt need quality recievers around him to perform at a high level b/c he was a 1st overall pick? - Reggie Bush doesn't need a good O-line to open holes for him in order to be effective b/c he was taken 2nd overall? - Andre Johnson doesnt need a QB who can get the ball to him? - Hell I'll even use the GG darling Vilma: He doesn't need an NT to occupy blockers in order for him to make plays. That's a # 12 pick? There is some wives tale among Gg posters and football fans everywhere that somehow 1 or 2 early picks along the DL and OL..and suddenly the DL should be elite no questions asked, and those given players should be dominant pro bowlers no questions asked.A gap shooting 3T DT like D rob, having a 280 lb DT next to him who has no c\clue how to play the 2 gap, is the equivelant of Carson Palmer having james Dearth as his #1 recieving option. I hate to tell you guys, but the lines are no different than any other team aspect of football. You have to have individuals who play off eachother's strengths and can develop a certain chemistry.. I'm not sure if this is from a lack of media coverage, wishful thinking or just plain ignorance(and thats not directed at you edawwg as you're a pretty good poster) but this fact just seems to go out the window when discussing early trenchman picks. D rob has been a victim of this assumption since his rookie year. People heard the hype about him, expected huge things and never came back to earth. The guy is an interior lineman. The most you can expect from him is 5-6 sacks a year,55-60 tackles, consistency in maintaining gaps and collapsing of the pocket. I'm not sure what expectations people really thought they were getting in him..but no interior lineman is ever gonna really knock your socks off. Warren Sapp's hype came directly from the media..and yes he was a great DL...but if not for media hype and acouple 5+ sack seasons, Tampa fans or anybody else wouldve never hyped him the way they did. Now has D rob put up the #'s listed above/played that given role consistlently? Aside from 2004, no he hasn't. And w/ his high salary cap number, it deserves a certain amount of criticism. But watch the guy closely. I have maintained a column regarding in depth analysis of linemen for going on 2 years now...and watch Linemen very closely during games, and I can tell you that D rob has NEVER been as bad as jet fans percieve him as being. And although inconsistency and a high salary count are certainly factors worth considering...the 3 years he has not lived up to expectations all have factors that are OBVIOUSLY worth considering. 2004- D rob was a 20 year old rookie thrown into the fire for a defense that was starting Mo Lewis and Marvin Jones at LB, and Teddy cottrell at DC. Enough said. 2006- Was fighting through a serious knee injury and had a 270 lb NT playing next to him 2007- Is playing a position he is ill-suited for. It doesnt take much knowledge to see how obviously out of place he is at NT.He doesnt have the wide base or discipline to play that spot. the problem is we have no one else. If you think D rob is bad there...just think at how bad Kimo or Ellis would be. That's not an excuse. He HAS been incconsistent..but before you refer to him as "D fat"...and use him as your personal punching bag for every single setback the franchise takes..just look up at the factors listed above and ask yourself if he's really had all the right factors in place to perform at a consistent high level. Also think back to DT's of jets past such as Eric Howard, Maurice Anderson, Tom Barndt and Shane Burton..I can tell you D rob is far better than any of them....and that in itself is an accomplishment. Just one man's opinion.. take it as you may.
hat's an interesting argument, but look at Denver, they got four average D linemen that were not good enough to play in Cleveland and now they have a really good front four. It must be because they have very good linebackers who are very fast and can get to any RB who gets past the DL and make the tackle. What we have a swiss cheese D: the RBs shoot through the D line and then the LBs are no where to be found plus they are poor tacklers. Vilma, who used to be very good last year, now is being dominated instead of being a dominant LB like last year. The fact seems to be that we don't have the D lineman nor the Linebackers for the 3-4, so you are going to need more than one or two players to fix this. How many years will that take? I thought smart coaches like Mangini who are students of the game would build a team that would utilize the players strengths and not try to put the players in a system they are no suited for. That's what Herm did but maybe the crack pipe has been passed from Herm to Mangini. I hope not.
you make good points. and i'm not one of those who refer to him as D-Fat, nor do I think we should axe him so soon. however, when you watch him get blown off the line, there should be some concern. it's not something i expect from a guy who is a top 5 pick. i'm trying not be hypocritical, as i firmly believe that when/where the player gets picked isn't his fault. because Bradway bet the mortgage on D-Rob, he's forced to live up to lofty expectations, which isn't fair to him. i just don't agree that he needs to have some massive D-Lineman next to him if he's really that good. you're right, it vastly helps him; but because he doesn't have someone like Ferguson next to him is no excuse for him to get lit up. i've been all for keeping D-Rob around and letting him try DE because obviously, he's not responding to the NT adjustment. maybe it's unfair to ask him to change his game in a matter of 8 weeks (although he had the Offseason to prepare), but now we're asking him to change his entire position by moving him to DE. i really hope he succeedes. but if he doesn't, then what? by now, we know Mangini isn't going to run a 4-3, so where does that leave D-Rob? cheers
