Brock Bowers - Olu Fashanu Discussion

The NFL has changed a lot in the past 15 years and a lot of passes have moved behind the LOS with yards after the catch. And that doesn’t always mean they’re plays designed to go the distance, they could merely be plays designed to get into a 2nd and 5 or 3rd and 3.

So I look at it that a lot times in a properly designed offense, a good set of skill position players can mask a so-so offensive line moreso than a good offensive line can mask a so-so set of skill position players.

The 2020 Eagles always come to mind. Really good offensive line. Good enough quarterback (at least at the time). Awful skill position players with a washed up DeSean Jackson and possession tightend in Ertz. They fixed it in the coming years and almost fucked around and won a SB.

 

You are mixing up addressing the problem with trying to address the problem, but failing. This year so far it looks like he finally addressed it for the first time in his tenure.

 

This is really the point here. Would you really rather have Mitchell protecting Rodgers for the next 4 weeks (and probably a lot more than that throughout the year) if you had Bowers? I am not so sure I would even with Bowers playing well. It's obvious Bowers is a players and Bower Boys were spot on there. I am conceding this point right now. But knowing now that Moses will be injured do you still pass on Olu? Particularly if he plays well? To me it comes down to Olu's performance. If he plays well, and locks down an OT starting spot, him and Conk and probably more valuable than Brock and Max. Just because Rodgers may not survive 4 weeks of Max.

 

I guess this just comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion regarding how bad having a single bad OL is. Some people think it automatically means your QB is likely to be knocked out, some don't.

 

I don’t agree with this take at all. While it may not necessarily mean that the QB will be injured (though especially with an older QB coming off a major injury like AR it is worrisome), it absolutely DOES mean that the offense will be negatively impacted in a significant way. Remember the days of Wayne Hunter? Or the days of Max Mitchell or Carter Warren last year? Yes, AR helps to mitigate bad OL play MUCH better than Zach did, or Mike White did, or Tim Boyle did last year, because he can read defenses and gets the ball out quick.

Still, OL is the key to the whole offense. I think between our various weapons, a QB like AR can elevate Lazard and Conklin enough…we have two good RBs who can both catch the ball, we have Mike Williams coming on as he gets healthier. And we’ve yet to see AR and GW really click, and I’m pretty confident those two guys will figure it out.

Bowers has looked good through three games, sure, but he was pretty much a non factor in the last game … my wife is a huge Raiders fan and we watched that game. So yes, he’s good. He’s not Kelce yet. He’s not Kittle yet. He may become that. Even if he does, OT is WAY more important. Especially for us. AR will find targets if we give him protection.

I’ve said it many times already, but I wanted the OT on draft day SO badly, even over Bowers and Odunze. I was happy with the decision then and I’m happy with it today.

Now of course, Olu has to go out and play well and not bust. Bowers has pretty much already shown that he’s not a bust after only three games just based on his performance so far…he looks like the real deal. Olu will now get his chance to do the same. And all that argument about drafting a “backup” is already moot…we knew he’d likely have to play, and it has come to pass.

So let’s go!

 

I don't agree that the OL is the key to the whole offense. Rodgers is.

Also, as @Jonathan_Vilma said, good weapons allow you to overcome weaknesses on the OL. That's especially true for someone like Bowers who can catch quick passes at the LoS and do damage after the catch. Basically, I think playmakers minimize the impact of bad OL play more than good OL play minimizes the impact of bad playmakers.

That's without even reiterating that Bowers likely plays every game this season while Olu likely plays what, maybe half of them? Is half a season of any OL worth more than a full season of one of the best TEs in the league? I don't think so. Positions aside, Bowers is also probably just a better player than Olu is.

 

Yeah…while we agree on many takes, on this we just disagree, and that’s ok. I don’t agree that good playmakers minimize the impact of bad OL play more than the other way around. If you look at all of the playoff teams, and especially teams that go deep into the playoffs, they don’t have bad OL play. Some better than others, but they don’t have Max Mitchell type guys starting. So we just disagree.

We do agree that Rodgers is the key for us. So to me, keeping him protected is priority 1, 2, and 3. Period. Why you would want to risk that having to play the likes of Warren or Mitchell I don’t get. Doesn’t mean that Olu may miss a block and AR gets hurt anyway, I get that. But I do think Olu is an upgrade over both those guys. And I’d prefer to err on the side of caution.

Maybe also I think better of Conklin than you do…which is fair as well. I think he’s a good enough TE, and I think we have other good weapons for AR to work with. Would I love to have Bowers? Sure I would. But not at the expense of a bad OL.

I just think that given our recent history with bad OL play, whether it means our QB gets hurt (like AR did, like Mike White did before him, etc.), or whether that just means that we are more limited in the plays we can call because they all have to be quick dump offs, it impacts the team.

I’d rather be solid at OT and depend on Rodgers elevating guys like Conklin and Lazard to find targets than having Bowers and watching Rodgers run for his life or be limited to quick dump off type plays all the time.

 

Look, he did not overcome bad OT last year. Fluke? Maybe. He is also old and is coming off the injury. I'd also argue bad OL ruined Sam and possibly Zach. But the bottom line is Rodgers was KOed, Mike White was KOed, and young QBs ruined with the shitty lines we've had. Are we now asking, will Rodgers be KOd AGAIN with bad OT? Like Mike White also was before. I personally am not willing to take that bet to get an upgrade over Conk.

Now, if Olu is not good it is a different story...

 

I think part of the problem is that we’ve had literally zero mid-round success with offensive lineman so we want that shit fixed with what seems like a sure fire bet in a first round pick. It’s simply an unsustainable model to need to constantly spend high end resources on the offensive line which has the most position players of any group on the field at once.

I’m all in on building a brick wall and my pre-draft analysis had nothing to with it being a “win-now” year or anything like that. I simply think Bowers is and will be the better football player than Olu that does more for this team in the short and long term.

 

You are right, in theory we should have been able to get Brock and mid round picks like Max/Warren would have been good enough to protect the QB. The problem is they are not. Max is basically a PS type of guy and Warren is behind him. So, yes what you are saying theoretically makes a lot of sense, but practically for us it simply does not, and as you correctly pointed out, it is a big problem.

 

It all circles back to Douglas whiffing on Becton when everyone was screaming Wirfs.

 

Don't forget to add running back room. The jets have a much better running game and RB room then LV does. Which already sees our best player Breece Hall picking up a lot of that short dump work target share (which was over half of Bowers' receptions in the week two 9 catch game that got everybody worked up)

 

The offensive line is only as good as its worst player.

 

I do agree with this, there's a lot of evidence supporting it. I would add though that the true risk is having an absolute disaster at one of the spots. Mitchell and Warren aren't good but I'm not sure they qualify as absolute disasters.

I also just still think it's rare to lose both a starting OT and QB in the same season, so I would've preferred it if we hadn't spent a first round pick on a hypothetical.

 

Its probably best to wait and see how these guys are looking at the end of the season. There is so much time for things to change.

Bowers looks good, but if Fashanu looks good as well, he was the better pick. A franchise LT will always be more important than a TE. If he has to wait a year to play, so be it. McDonald has proven this year so far that a red shirt year isn't that big of a deal if there are guys contributing.

Lets not sleep on Conklin either. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up having a pretty good season. Him and Rodgers looked to be getting on the same page last week.

 

Horrendous tackle play can definitely wreck a game. However, most decent offensive coordinators recognize this early on in a game and will chip with tightends and backs to mitigate the damage.

Feels like our game planning fix for this over the years has been to spread the defense out and throw the ball short of the sticks continuously on key downs.

 

I agree with a lot of what has been said above. While JD has found many jewels in the mid later rounds, be it DL or safety or even CB and special teamers, we have been mediocre with OL at best.

 

I’m sorry but AVT and Tipp are far from wasted resources and along with Olu the heart of the
OL for the future