Your opinion on all subject is hereby rendered completely invalid. Do not pass Go! Do not collect $200. It's already ugly. It's just being masked by the fact that we squeaked by Dallas, beat up an awful Jacksonville, and then lost to two teams that no one would argue are competitive without our offense's best player. Eventually the excuses will run out. Then people will have to start facing the fact that it's not all Schotty's fault. Thank you! I may not necessarily agree with your position on Schottenheimer but you're an intelligent poster who doesn't resort to hyperbole and idiotic comments to make his point. It's nice to be able to read a reasonable position on the other side of the argument.
Like I've been saying for years now: it's not the design, it's the execution. If the play design is so great, but the players consistently fail to execute to the level they need to, just what good is it? You know what that argument is exactly like? Give Peyton Manning to this Offense and see how it rolls. It's exactly same shit like this. The design might be really good, but if your players cannot execute that, then it's useless. Asking for better execution is just like asking same level of QB play from Manning or Brady. (That's part of execution too, right?)
This. I can honestly say even up to last nights game, I was never in favor of firing shotty just for the sake of it. While I didn't think he was the greatest offensive coordinator, I thought him being here for year 3 of Sanchez's career was more important than just making a change. The offense was always decent and in the past 2 years, was certainly good enough to win 2 AFC title games. But after watching this year and most specifically last night, I have had a enough with this f*ckin piece of sh*t. We run the same stupid f'in plays for 4 years sanz wildcat and I am tired of it. Coming out of half last night, I thought that he would have finally gotten the f*ckin point that we were not going to be effective running the same tired run plays against the Ravens and would have come out in shotgun with 4 WR. Seriously going 3 and out with all incompletions would have kept us more in the game then sanchez under center in 2 back 2 wr sets. The sh*t was just maddening. He couldnt make a drop without pressure, so put him in f*ckin shotgun to give him a chance in hell. Yet we kept doing the same thing. Every time it got to third and long and we went shotgun, we at least resembled an NFL offense and got a couple first downs. The Ravens weakness is spreading them out and throwing. So what do we do? Run dives and counters all f*ckin game right into Ngata and Cody. I seriously couldnt believe what I was watching. Look at NE. They have no running game to speak of, yet they have the best offense in football this side of GB. Yes, they have Brady and that is a HUGE difference but the point is they use that passing game despite not having a threatening running game and put up 35 pts a game. Yes, our O line was bad and yes, the running game is sh*t but thats the OC's job to adjust. Give Sanchez more than 2 f*ckin seconds by going shotgun. Run draws and traps out of shotgun to keep the D honest. We have above average WR, a good TE, and WR depth. I would put Kerley and Mason against any 3 or 4 DB in football and take that matchup any day of the week. But we relegated them to blockers and spectators because shotty sucks. His biggest weakness......biggest weakness is play design. I know people b*tch about play calling, but his play design to me is 10x worse. This offense is not catering around the strengths and weaknesses of this team. Its a one size fits all offense with him. Same plays with Pennington to Favre to Sanchez.....same plays to Cotchery, to Edwards to Holmes. No innovation. The only innovative thing Shotty has done since being here was stealing the wildcat from the Phins. Sanchez and the line sucked ass last night, but last night was the final straw with Shotty. He can go jump in his f*ckin bath tub with a toaster in is hands, xmas lights around his neck, and an electric razor wrapped around his balls for all I care cause he should be f*ckin GONE!
ok, how about this then: someone give me a reason why we should *keep* Schotty (note, this is different than asking why we *shouldn't* fire him). To put it another way, say our OC spot was empty right now, who here would advocate hiring Scotty to fill it, and why?
It gets worse. Rex does not get it. 3 yards and a cloud of dust, down 21-0 by the half next week. Great. (P.S. Cimin reveals why he has no business writing a football column since you dont hide OL weakness by passing out of the I formation, or with Sanchez under center. douchebag)
AND WE WERE PASSING OUT OF THE FUCKING I FORMATION. (Except the first play where Schitty put us in a 3 WR look, and put Sanchez UNDER CENTER. Now he;s on Ed Reeds Christmas card list)
Sigh. Seriously, I don't have the energy to vent out my anger and frustration any more. I just hope Schottenheimer gets his head out of his ass soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are some things in offensive schemes that work well with each other, and work horrendously with each other. For instance, short passing game works very well with spread formation, as that stretches the defense horizontally. Ground-and-Pound rushing attack works well with deep passing game, as deep passing forces the defense to stretch vertically, not allowing the defense to load up on the box - that's what made Sid Gillman offense (and Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin) so successful. Now... look at what Schottenheimer is doing. First of all, there is no deep passing play whatsoever involved in his passing attack. Rather his passing schemes are pussified version of Norv Turner offense (which is a variant of Sid Gillman offense, btw), only going shorter. Sure, Sanchez had his share of long passes. It is a direct result of 1. broken play that wasn't supposed to be played out like that 2. players pleading for the ball deep. There is a reason some aspects of these elements work well with others while work to the detriment to the other. In case of short passing game with rushing attack, it is a defensive heaven; by swarming the line of scrimmage, the defense gets to stop both passing AND rushing threats. *It is this reason you need deep passing threat, to ensure that they will get burned if they keep cheating up front.* I don't know how many of you remember this, but when I watched the pick-6 by Sanchez, I was reminded of one particular play from Pennington: [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prj8huUe-Rw[/YOUTUBE] Look. Jets offense is not really scaring anyone deep. Defenses do not respect them, and in case of deep middle, the defenses basically KNOW the ball never goes there. So the defensive backs can sit on the shallow field and watch the QB, knowing 1. he has safety help up top nearby 2. he has sideline help 3. if the pass is caught (the absolutely worst case) it's still but a few yards completion, not a burner that can hurt you for 6. So, are you guys saying Rex is forcing the Jets offense to go with short passing attack AND rushing attack? Of all people, Rex Ryan? Wouldn't he KNOW how to make that sort of inept offense miserable himself? If this kind of philosophical error doesn't come from Schottenheimer, JUST WHERE THE HELL DOES IT COME FROM? P.S. If you watch the video link above, you'd hear what Aaron Ross has to say; he knew what was going on, and he was a freakin' rookie for crying out loud. If a rookie can figure out your offensive scheme to the point he can hammer the last nail on the coffin, don't you really think something is up there with the OC?
This (and following posts) are legit points. Really, this is good conversation and I wish we'd have been talking like this all along. Those of us like myself who "defend" Schotty, aren't saying he is a genius who can't make mistakes. We're simply saying that he's not the entirety of the problem. There is a lack of execution, which you acknowledge. The question this raises, of course, is whether that is because the players just aren't that good (which has generally been my opinion) or because Schotty just has no clue how to adjust. In truth, the answer is likely closer to "both." I still think Sanchez isn't a great QB. He's average, which is good enough if everything falls into place, but not elite. The receivers are above average, but none are elite, including Holmes. Our starting RB isn't that good at all. Contact brings him down. Every time. He's a good CoP back, but we need a true feature back (I'm hoping the tandem of McKnight/Greene can be that). Schotty needs to knock off the shit though. When opposing defenses tell you they can read every play, when former players tell you they can read the play, when people sitting on the couch at home can read every play, it's a problem. That's not predicitability. That is, in fact, poor design.
just watched the raven game again. I can honestly say after evaluating as much as I could from the offense the only innovative/creative thing we did that threw that defense off was the connor FB hand off play. I think he picked up about 10yrds. This was an inventive run. we need more of those off balance kind of plays
I do not get how so many fans can let Rex of the hook but still bash schotty. It is down to Rex to get this working, he is not a DC anymore, he will have to be accountable for his team and live or die with it. There could however be a discussion about why on earth he persists with Shottenh?
I think it's been 2x in the past 2 weeks that the announcers mentioned peculiar WR routes where they ended up bunched together. Mason and Plax running 10 yard curls only 5 yds apart from one another. Saw the same exact thing with Holmes and Mason running identical 15 yard curls only 10 ft from each other. How is anyone going to get open in space with such nonsensical play design? I also recall this issue being observed on this board last year. WTF is Schotty thinking w/ this crap? Enough with the damn risky sideline routes, Sanchez doesn't have time to be looking outside every play and look where that got us Sunday night. Pick 6! It's like Schotty took the same playbook from 2010 and is just re using the same tired old crap with totally different personell. Hate this guy with a passion! He better show us something or he is officially on the chopping block.
what about tanny? the ravens had ol problems and newsome brought in gerode and mckinney to play reserve center and right tackle. ground and pound is more like leak and creak until the guy who is hired to acquire players does his share to fix the ol! :shit:
Tanny has had a shitty Fall, specially considering they are trying to build for now, yet they kept 8 mil under cap and we have crappy depth at OL. Inexcusable. Of course they did not expect Turner to go down but shit happens rather quickly in football.
Everybody is blamed but the head coach? Yet in every successful dynasty in every sport I know, the hc has been instrumental in every facet of the team/ franchise? I am not impressed by Rex but I love the press confs.
yeh i was among one of the people complaining about the routes last year. i dont know how you can really call mark bad considering that most of the time he has to throw to a reciever that is like 5 yards away from another receiver downfield.
Nonsense..it was Martz in St Louis, Belichick's defense for the Giants and Ryan's defense in Baltimore just as examples of why those teams were so good for so long, I'm sure there are plenty of other examples as well. The head coach can only do so much.
Alio Thank you for crystallizing what I have been attempting to unsuccessfully say on numerous responses to threads on our offensive wows a) The execution problems are to a significant extent the results of play schemes that do not fit the caliber of our team b) Our wide receivers are very good but not world class. They probably expect more from Sanchez that Sanchez can deliver. Ability to read defenses and adjust on the fly is a gift as much as a learned skill. Quite frankly Sanchez has a long way to go. c) Defenses see our offense as transparent and predictable. They know what is coming by the way we line up. Hell even an idiot like me can read the next play at times. Hence even our running game suffers due to predictability d) We never adjust a damn thing on the fly. We keep getting our heads pounded till half time before we adjust. e) We don’t take advantage of the no huddle with a simple set of plays to keep the defense from re-aligning depending on down and formation f) There are certain throws Sanchez has a hard time making, I call them finesse timing throws particularly to the left side. Stop calling them till he becomes proficient. Also the time it takes for the play to develop has to be a direct function of the protection you have. With our OL problems plays that take too long to develop will get Sanchez killed. STOP them now. g) In my opinion Schotty is incapable of creating a system that fits the style of players we have. Since Sanchez and the supporting cast are going nowhere for years, the time has come to either help Schotty change the philosophy NOW (please Moore and Rex) or change Schotty with a OC that plays to the players strengths. h) Until Sanchez can develop into a real franchise QB (if and when) we must proceed with an offensive plan that is unpredictable, quick and simple to execute by NFL standards
It's been my battle cry for years now too. First and foremost, Schottenheimer's offensive schemes do NOT expose the weakness of the defense, but on the other hand magnifies the shortcomings of the offense to the extreme. The best case comes from Pennington - under Schottenheimer's system, he looked exposed, incapable and shaky. That Pennington led Dolphins to their only playoff berth in recent years the very next season. If this is not an incriminating evidence against Schottenheimer, I don't know what is. (Don't even mention Favre, as he is that much better of a QB than Chad ever will be, at least in terms of physical talent.) At that time, Dolphins could not even run conventional rushing attack with consistent success, which is why they had to resort to that highschool bullshit that is Wildcat. Say what you will about Jets situation, but Pennington's crew down there at Miami was not any better - but he produced an exceptional result, with what little he had. Schotty defenders keep giving the fucking lame excuse of "Schottenheimer never had stable QB during his tenure" but Pennington, in his FIRST FUCKING YEAR with the Dolphins, gave a result that we all could see. It's not even like Pennington spent the entire off-season with Dolphins offensive crew either; he was cut in the summer and if at all, he had but a month to study the Dolphins offense - and that was more than enough for him to get the Dolphins to the playoff. Now, if the offensive Genius of Schottenheimer couldn't get any tangible result out of the 5 QBs, just what the FUCK happened down at Miami? Weren't they in the same boat? They have had a carousel of QBs ever since Dan Marino went out. In that regard, they are worse than Jets are, no? Yet how did Pennington, who was mired with his noodle arm and inability to throw outside hashmark, produce a respectable offensive result? What's the logic behind that? Care to elaborate? Anyone? P.S. I know there is another thread about the flaws Sanchez has. But you know what? We could start a thread about Pennington's weaknesses as well. Weaknesses aside, Paul Hackett still brought the best out of Pennington. (At one point, his season rating went over 100.) I can understand why people are now looking at Sanchez's weaknesses, but at the end of the day, if the OC is competent, then it shouldn't matter too much. Hell, if Tom Brady is playing in this horse shit of a system, HIS weaknesses will be discussed ad nauseum in one of these threads as well. Anyway, here's one-line summary for this post: QB instability is NOT an excuse for Schottenheimer. (Pennington laughs at you.)
