Joe didn't always have top notch run games and his weapons in SB XVI were average at best, remember he won 2 SBs w/o Jerry Rice. Joe also had his share of clunkers in the playoffs though he was flawless in SBs.
Montana had Clark and Solomon who were a big step over anything Brady had in his first SB. By his 2nd SB Montana had Roger Craig running the ball. I'm not saying Brady is better, but I am saying it is at least debatable. In the 80's, with a couple of exceptions, the real SB was the NFC championship game for the most part anyway.
Clark and Solomon were never great, I would put a Troy Brown on their level and they had no run game in 1981 while NE did. I would say offensive talent was comparable w/ the '81 Niners and '01 Pats. I made a case for Brady, I think he's closing the gap. Yes, the NFC was much better than the AFC.
Obviously as a Pats fan I have an inherent bias, but I've always held Manning in high regard and thought it would make more sense to wait until both guys were finished playing to make any comparisons. To an extent that's still true. Either guy is capable and has the time to rack up another title or two. Brady's NFL career is extremely unique. By the end of 2004, after being a full-time starter for only three seasons, he had a spot locked up in the Hall of Fame, and has been sitting at the table playing with house money since then. But he didn't drop-off or fade into obscurity... he got better, even if his teams have not had the same level of success since that time. For me, the win/loss record is only part of the picture, but it's a hard part to ignore. Has Brady really "gotten lucky" or benefited from stronger team play 17 times? Has Manning just had bad luck, and have his teams been the main reason behind the 11 playoff losses and eight (if that's right) one-and-dones? Their postseason stats are nearly identical, but stats don't always tell you what you need to know. The crushing, game-ending (basically) INT that Manning threw on Saturday night counts the same as the harmless INT that Brady threw against the Broncos in their blowout last year. An 8-yard pass on 1st and 10 in the first quarter is not the same as an 8-yarder on 3rd-and-6 in the 4th while trying to hold onto a lead. I end up in the same place I always do on this debate. Both guys are all-time greats, but when you look back, Brady has an edge. Even some Indy fans are coming around to that.
If he chokes I'll bash him, it still won't change the fact that he is miles ahead of Peyton. Brady hasn't always come up big but he's come up big much more often than Peyton.
Now you are being unreasonable. Neither Peyton is ahead of Brady by miles nor Brady ahead of Peyton. This is as close as it gets. Be fair.
Close in the reg season? absolutely but these 2 are sperated by posteason and the failures of Peyton in so many big games. Brady is far and away the best QB of his generation. This past weekend just confirmed what we already knew. On Sat Peyton is handed 14 pts and still can't win at home while Brady loses his top traget and leads NE to 40+ pts.
Not to sound harsh, but do you read my posts all the way through, or do you just see Peyton's name and make assumptions on what I write? Because that is honestly what it seems like from my end. Off the top of my head: -you thought I used drops, which the link used, I didn't write about it. You then actually used the drop excuse you admonished which was funny from my point of view -You thought I was giving credit to Peyton, which I never did or was ever discussing. I'm still not sure how you got that from my arguments. -You missed this sentence immediately before after my What IF list, Before: "but here's how it much affects playoff W/L without the QB ever stepping on the field:" After: "These what IFs are a lot different that what IF QB A made a better throw because that is QB play. This is something that clearly affected W/L record of a QB in the playoffs that they had no control over. These are all plays the QB was not on the field for that change W/L." I mean while your list is nice and all, it completely misses the point of the list I created and specifically explained twice as to avoid someone seeing what if and missing the whole point of the list. But yeah, again, if you want to discuss how exactly we take a team's playoff record at face value and use it as a QB stat and how that makes sense, that's what I'm interested in. We have specific throwing stats like TDs, INTs, comp %, YPA, and QB rating. Yet we don't take these specific throwing stats at face value, we like to see them in context and in game situations. Yet then we turn around and take a team stat, W/L ( for example end of the season, Christian Ponder didn't go 10-6, the Vikings went 10-6) and use it as a QB stat without looking deeper like we do with actual throwing stats. Sidenote, when they show W/L as a QB stat on TV, who gets credit when a QB gets hurt in the middle of a game or even pulled? For the Kirk Cousins comeback, does that game count as a W when they show his record as a starter? Does it count as a W for RGIII when they show his record as a starter? What about McElroy/Sanchez and etc.
Wow...did I start something with this thread Following on from a lot of the vvery in depth arguments , I feel sometimes it comes down to having a chip on your shoulder combined with an extreme talent this can elevate over people of a similar talent base..and to this day I still think Brady plays with that from being forgotten on his draft day to him being seen as protected by the refs etc etc ...he is one ballsy fuck stick at times. Brady for me is everything you want in a qb , stands tall , feels pressure like no other qb outside JM and can throw all the passes. As I said earlier...I detest the fact he plays for them up the road but with 1:10 on the clock , no time outs and you need a td to win...I know who I would dial up if I had to....for me that tells me all I need.
You posted the link so it is associated w/ you. it doesn't matter to me, all those things in the lionka nd everything you wrote are excuses. Stats tell part of the story, I don't know how many times I have to explain this. It's great that they have similar #s but Indy/Den's Ds have allowed less PPG and the difference in record is huge. Is it the run game making the difference or is the QBs? An INT in the 1st qtr at midfield counts the same as an INT for a TD to end a SB so on a stat sheet they look alike but we know better when we watch and see how the stats were accumulated. We've been over each playoff loss and he's been the main culprit much more often than not. He had a 91 rating vs. Pitt but he was terrible and cost his team the game, he had a 97 rating against SD but again his TWO RZ INTs cost his team the game, had a 91 rating at SD but could only lead team to 7 pts in 2nd half and that was b/c of blown coverage, 88.5 in SB vs. NO but he led them to 17 pts all game(just 7 the last 3 qtrs) and threw the game ending INt for a TD, against us he had a 1 08 rating but only led his high powered O to 16 pts and w/ a chance to make sure Vinatieri would kick at the gun he failed and gave Mark Sanchez a chance to do what Peyton couldn't do in a very similar spot in 2005, last Sat he had an 88 rating but was given 14 pts and still lost while his THREE TOs led directly to 17 pts including the GW FG for Bal. Stats tell PART of the story, the sooner we all realize this the better off we will be as fans. The W/L counts for the starting QB. Sanchez got credit for the W against Ari even though we were losing when he was pulled.
Brady is the best there is. I'll admit it. I hate that S.O.B. but damnit do I respect him. That ass-hole Belichick won the QB lottery. Congratula-fucking-lations. What sucks as a Jets fan is that we've had to compete against H.O.F. quarterbacks in our division for years now. 80s/90s - Marino, 90s-Kelly, 2000s-Brady(best ever), and although it was brief even Manning in our division.. conference though for 2000s.. We had Namath in the 60's, but that's a long time ago and a little before my time. But even HE can be debated (let's not get into that again) It's high time the New York Jets get a fucking franchise changing QB...
Short memories. Dan Marino pisses all over Brady. When Marino retired, he had -every single QB record- that a QB could possibly have. In every category. Most TD's, most TD's in a season, most yards, most yards in a season, EVERYTHING. It's taken years and an NFL that changed rules to make it pass happy, for people to start chipping away at his records. Brees stole the single season yardage, Brady-Moss the single season TD record, but Marino had ALL of those records all by his damn self, and in a tougher league. My Dolphins failed Dan in getting him a competent team around him. Marino never once had a defense as good as the Patriots had (in the early years of Brady) or the Saints, and he certainly didn't have all these great players around him. Had Dan Marino been given a Randy Moss to throw to... that single season TD record is still unbroken I guarantee you. Super bowls are a team accomplishment. Brady is overrated. Let's not forget the Cheatriots cheated to a few of those superbowls. And Brady got smacked in the mouth twice now by the Giants. The Patriots were the huge favorites in 2007 Super Bowl, and had much more talent than the Giants had, on paper. F Brady. When Marino lost in the Super Bowl to the 49ers, it was a high scoring game in which the 49ers simply abused Miami's defense and outscored the Dolphins. Marino didn't get shut down to 14 pts like Brady did. Dan Marino is still the GOAT QB.
Hey junc, are you watching your beloved Brady? Manning's team put up 35 points against the same team one week ago. How about Brady now?
I said Manning's team didn't say Manning.But that's not the point. For junc, everything is about postseason success. That is my issue.
You are right, I say Dan was similar to Elway, the difference being that Denver ended up with Terrell Davis and the dolphins never focused on complementing Dan with a running game. I do sympathize with you because Dan was a nasty QB. Definitely top 5, I would still pick JM if I wanted an all time team but Dan was one of the greats.
0 Superbowls sine they got caught cheating. Chocking yet again in a big game. Yea its settled. They both do not belong in the conversation.
