IF the Jets had scored more than their opponents more often they would have won more games. The IF game is really silly IMO.
You are right, it's just something I find interesting. Anyways, if you win the Superbowl, I'm sure you're looking forward to offering us as a sacrificial lamb on opening night
For most of his career the guy stood there like a statue. That's a lot of wear and tear that he doesn't have on his body. That's the point.
Yup, put on top of that that BB is supposed to be a defensive minded type of guy, yet how defenses have declined and declined. I give Brady 90% of the credit on why that team had been so successful.
1) led team to 9 pts in competitive portion of game, had home game and bye. I can give him a break since it was his first playoff game. 2) led O to 3 pts entire 2nd half and OT, yes K missed a FG but it was 49 yards on grass. Hardly a gimme and as it turnewd out vanderjagt was the Peyton manning of kickers- great reg season, choker in postseason. The Miami D was known for choking in postseason. The 5 playoff losses from 1997-2001 the Miami D gave up an AVERAGE of 29 PPG. In 5 qtrs peyton could only lead his high powered O to 17 and only 3 the last 3 qtrs of play. 3) Can't blame him solely but you can win games giving up 41 pts, it's impossible to win scoring ZERO. 4) It was a 5 min drive at home in a dome, not a 9 min drive on the road in the cold w/ a rabid crowd. very different, Indy was also an explosive offensive team, we were not. This is a perfect example of looking at stat sheets and forgetting what happened. Down 21-10 w/ 5 1/2 to play he throws an INT to Polamalu, a CLEAR INT which they somehow overturn and Indy scores to pull w/in 21-18, the game was over w/ the correct call. peyton gets ball back w/ 3 timeouts and 2 1/2 mins to play from his 18. Turns over on downs at Indy 2. Bettis fumbles on next play, Indy returns to their 42 w/ 1:01 to play and THREE timeouts still. He knows he has the kicking version of himself but on 2nd and 2 from the 28 he thrwos deep, what does he do on 3rd and 2? the SAME THING and sets up a 46 yd Fg instead of making it a chip shot. This loss was ALL on peyton. 5) congrats on putting up better stats but Peyton's 2 INTs came in the RZ preventing Indy from scoring 3-7 pts each time in a 4 pt loss. After SD took the lead Peyton had TWO possessions to win the game and FAILED. This was on him. 6)why did SD get such great FP down 3 late in the that WC game? hmmm, maybe b/c Peyton couldn't get a 1st down and took a sack at his 1 yd line to set up his P w/ less room to punt? he needed ONE 1st down, ONE! Couldn't do it. In the 2nd half he led them to 1 TD, on a completely blown coverage where Wayne was wide open catching SD off guard, other than that gift he did nothing. 7) If he gets ONE more 1st down the FG by AV would have been w/ little to no time left and we wouldn't have had a chance to win it. He FAILED AGAIN and Sanchez did what peyton couldn't do inthe '05 playoffs against Indy- get his K a chip shot FG to win it despite less time on the clock and less timeouts. of those 7 the only one where he isn't primarily responsible was the 41-0 loss to us where the entire team stunk but again you can win allowing 41(as Ari did in the '09 WC rd) but you can't win scoring ZERO.
Stop. You can't even compare those two runs. That Browns team had no talent on it, while that Pats dynasty is one of the GOAT.
then why was BB 5-13 w/o Brady in 2000-2001? why in 2 full years in NE w/o Brady has he not reached the playoffs? Cle had plenty of talent in a MUCH weaker AFC at the time, he inherited a franchise that was a year removed from making the AFC title game and had made 3 in 4 years.
I really don't think that you can assume this. Brady does not have the natural talent Manning was blessed with, but has made himself into a tremendous passer almost the equal of Peyton. But Peyton doesn't have the intangibles that brady has. That ability to rise to the biggest moments. It can't be taught IMO. Eli has that intangible, but he doesn't possess the natural talent Peyton does. I think Brady has both of those things. That's why I put him above Peyton. I think the debate for best QB in MY lifetime is between Brady and Montana. You want to have a debate about the best thrower of all time, then you can debate Peyton with Marino. Just my opinion.
Thanks for not reading anything. This is why I don't take your word at face value and look up the games by myself. I was doing it on own but figured I would share my findings since it lined up with this thread. Others who are paid to analyze games and use stats much better than me have come with similar findings, the two are very close with their difference coming down to non QB related plays. It is what it is though. We judge QBs on SBs and give QBs passes because of SBs won. It doesn't take into account the team, but that's how the game is promoted. Sanchez beat Brady in Foxboro except neither faced each other or were on the field at the same time. Sanchez beat NE's defense, our ST beat their ST, and our defense beat Brady, yet it ends up being Sanchez beat Brady without ever stepping on the field on the same play. It's how we end up in conundrums like did Eli Manning really beat Mr. Clutch Brady twice in the SB, or was it Eli beating the NE defense late and NYG defense beating up Brady and the NE offense? Did Brady really beat Warner, or did the NE defense cause 3 turnovers and beat up the Warner offense? We regard this as a QB vs QB league, but if Matt Bryant misses the FG on Sunday, is Matt Ryan still a "choker" and is Russell Wilson now "clutch"? Or is Wilson a choker because his defense couldn't defend ATL and Ryan now "clutch" even though he has done similar things multiple times. It is what it is, we judge quickly and narrow the game down to QB play because it provides good soundbites and better promotion. Also your picking up first down arguments is dumb because Brady didn't do in either SB loss. He also didn't do after either STL score in his first SB. He also didn't do against IND in the championship game. He didn't do it against BAL last year. He didn't do it against us, he actually led a 12 play drive ending in 0 points because he took a sack taking his team out of FG range. Should I go on? First down argument is a joke because I can say that about any QB. In fact cant we blame Sanchez againt DEN in the Tebow game for not picking up a 1st down? But you blame the Jets D for that loss even though you know Sanchez failed to pick up the first downs you reference. Brady couldn't do the same thing in the 18-0 SB, yet he gets a pass and NE defense is blamed for that loss from you. When you can evaluate a game without the name of the QB clouding your judgement, I'll listen. But you have shown nothing to show me you can do this. The fact of the matter is, Brady and Peyton are still comparable except at the end of the day Brady's kicker's made kicks that Peyton's kicker missed. Brady's defense held onto leads that Peyton's defense could not. And when Brady's D slipped and couldn't hold onto those leads, like in the Tyree SB, you blame the D for the loss but when Peyton's D blows the leads, you blame Peyton for not scoring enough points or picking up a first down. It's an odd double standard you have, it's almost like you hold Peyton to a higher standard, so why is it you do that? Is it because you think Peyton is better so he gets held to a higher standard? :breakdance: At the end of the day, they will always be linked, like Big Ben, Eli and Rivers will always be linked. Wilson, RGIII, and Luck will always be linked. When you play great, you get linked with other great play at the same time. And for Brady vs Montana, I don't think historians or anyone will let Montana fall from the #1 spot. I never watched him, but looking at stats and gamelogs, it's incredible some of things he did. He kept up his regular season play into the post season, something neither Manning of Brady has done. He has won a playoff run ending in SB while throwing 0 INTs in that run. He has won playoff games for 2 different teams, he never had a bad SB game, he ended a SB and championship game with GW TD throws. That aura plus the totality of his regular season stats make it tough. And then of course we have the biggest historical challenge in sports, the era. It's tough to judge players era to era especially QBs with rules making the game easier for QBs now. Also just curious, rate 1-6 Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Aaron Rodgers, Eli Manning, Big Ben, and Joe Flacco as QBs right now/this season. Then rate them 1-6 as their career QB play with 1 being the highest both times. Just curious how you rank them. Will be an interesting insight to how you judge QBs.
I am trying to educate you, if you don't want that help don't interact w/ me but when you post BS excuses I will tear them to shreds like I did. Instead of hurling insults pay attention and LEARN. I don't care what "experts" say, they are lazy and rely on stats as a crutch just as much as the average fan. QBs are judged on winning first especially when they have weapons to win which Brady really didn't have while winning those SBs, he had average talent on O. Manning has had elite talent around him since day 1. I don't say Brady beat warner, w/ the SB on the line down 14 he led his team to 14 pts and if not for the greatness of Brady would have go the game to OT. Did you know Brady and peyton each played 5 years w/ Vinatieri as their kicker? if it's all about the K how come Brady won 3 and Peyton 1? right now: Rodgers Ryan Ben Eli Flacco Sanchez career: Rodgers Ben Eli Ryan Flacco Sanchez why do you ask?
I asked because I wonder now why is Rodgers' career ahead of Big Ben and Eli. How much is playoff and SB success considered in ranking QBs? Is it a QB stat? You use it to say there shouldn't be a discussion between Peyton and Brady in this thread or another one, that it should be Brady and Montana b/c of playoffs and SBs, but then Rodgers is ranked ahead of Big Ben and Eli. How come Matt Ryan is ahead of Flacco also with Flacco owning a supremely better playoff record? Isn't that the wilcard that separates Brady and Manning yet it doesn't seem help Flacco, Big Ben, and Eli here. Here you go again, what about Brady's defense and ST the first year? He had an average O but a defense that held opponents to 13,17,17 points if I remember correctly. He also had a defense that scored 7 points in the SB, stopped the greatest show on turf, and set up 10 more points off turnovers. Why are you only looking at one aspect of a team. I guess it's better than just looking at QB play but you left off ST and D, a huge part of the run. It's a huge part of the run most if not all SB winning QBs have. We can point to Peyton's SB run, Eli's SB run, Brady's SB runs, Rodger's SB run, Brees' SB run, Ben's SB runs and pick out instances where ST and D saved the day or even carried the team. It's needed by every QB and most of the time because the offense dips from regular season play. I never said it's all about the kicker, common misconception a lot of people make. It's also a dumb argument to say it's all about the kicker. Although I'm sure no Jets fans wants to watch Doug Brien and no Chargers would like to watch Chargers-Jets Nate Kaeding highlights. But Peyton Manning lost two playoff games where his last possession was a missed FG. Can we blame him for not scoring more earlier, sure. But then how come we don't blame QBs who needed a late FG and their kicker made it for putting their team in a position to rely on their kicker? That's because we use if a kicker makes or misses a FG to influence how we thought the QB played. Prime example, if Matt Bryant missed the field goal on Sunday, everyone would bemoan Matt Ryan and say he needed to score more points in the 4th, play better overall, and stop choking. But since Matt Bryant made it, we are talking about what a great comeback Matt Ryan had. In reality his play was the same regardless if the kicker made or missed the kick, yet we let the kick define how Matt Ryan played that day. It's what we always do. If Nick Folk missed in IND we would be saying how Sanchez needed to play better in the first half and he let us down. But since Nick Folk drilled it, we talk about how Sanchez has clutchness and led the Jets to victory in IND. At the end of the day his stats were exactly the same regardless of Folk's kick going in and out, none of his stats change yet the perception of the game changes. Here's another great article explaining the statistical anomaly and lack of help Peyton had from his team. There's even gifs of some FG misses, drops, and INTs. Everything shows Peyton performs at the level of other QBs and the only thing that differs is record due to some circumstances out of his hands and some circumstances within his grasp he let slip away. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...s-9-11-playoff-record-is-call-for-help/20868/ Some interesting facts from the article: -*"Manning’s had a lead in the final 0:40 of the fourth quarter and lost four playoff games." -*"When your defense allows a fourth-quarter comeback 60 percent of the time (6-4), you have a real problem. It is one thing to let Drew Brees do it, but when it’s Jay Fiedler, Billy Volek, Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco? That is completely unacceptable." -"In the regular season Manning’s teams are 40-2 (.952) when they have zero giveaways on offense. That is the best record in the league since 1998. In the playoffs Manning’s Colts were 1-5 (.167) when they had zero giveaways on offense. The rest of the league is 50-5 (.909), and that even includes two games where neither team had a giveaway." -*"The only four times Manning’s teams have held off comeback attempts, they led to three straight wins and a Super Bowl in 2006, and a Super Bowl appearance in 2009 after holding off the Jets." -Peyton's wide receivers have the most fumbled completions out of any active QB. In the Billy Volek game: "This led to the Colts having an average starting field position of 15.7, which is the worst for any team in the playoffs in over 15 years." Now take a look at this: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbs-career-playoff-drive-stats-2012-edition/13308/ Some interesting facts from it, it was written end of last year's season: -Peyton has the second worst starting field position per drive out of the all QBs they researched -Peyton had the second longest TD drives. Less short field scoring opportunities. Now this one is also fun: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8700 With the game being a one score deficit, Brady has thrown more INTs than Manning. With the game being a 1 score deficit in the 4th quarter, Brady has thrown more INTs than Manning. Brady AND Manning both have 4 RZ picks each. Because Brady has thrown less INTs than Manning, he actually has a higher % of INTs thrown in the RZ in the playoffs. And at the end of the day nobody answered my original highlighted in bold,red, and underlined question: "Basically, someone please explain to me why W-L is a QB stat?" Also to clarify, Peyton deserves blame just as every QB deserves blame. It's assigning blame to him that clearly doesn't rest on him that seems out of this world. I don't know why we hold him to a higher standard than every other QB in the league. Now I'm not saying Peyton is the best QB ever, I'm not even saying he's better than Brady, I'm just saying this thing isn't shut and close and using playoff W/L to make it so is misleading. Him and Brady are 1a/1b switching that from year to year for probably the last 12 years. I don't think we can close this unless one them gets injured and never plays again, thus ending their stat compiling, or one of them has a Sanchez like regression and just forgets the basics of the game. That doesn't seem to be happening to either one of them, both have come back from season ending injuries just fine it seems. I'm not even arguing Peyton should be MVP this year, because he shouldn't. I'm arguing why is playoff W/L a deciding factor when clearly the W/L go beyond the QB position. The links do a better job explaining what I wrote about the non QB related anomalies Peyton has had as a QB. But seriously if anyone has time skip my writing and go straight to the links. Some very interesting stuff, much better writing than me, much more informative than me. It's good football writing, something we as Jets fans want more of from our local media outlets
Rodgers has one playoff choke and won a SB in his 2nd postseason. Peyuton didn't win a game until his 4th postseason, Eli didn't win a game until his 3rd postseason. Flacco had his first good postseason game in the title game last year, his 2nd good game came last Saturday(and he missed a ton of throws in that game too), Ryan has struggled in postseason too but he has been the superior reg season QB. Flacco has been better in postseason but not by a wide margin like Brady-Manning. It's not just postseason record, it's how they play in the big moments. Manning has bee awful, most of the 11 playoff loses can come back directly to him. That's not the case for Brady although obviously he has contributed. Brady was npt great yet in 2001 but he made plays to win, D and Sts were huge in the run to the SB but they wouldn't have made the playoffs w/o Brady andw/ the SB on the line he led one of the greatest drives in SB history to win it. Yes I blame him for both FG misses. In 2000 against a choking D he could only lead his high powered O to 3 pts in the last 3 qtrs then set his K up for a near 50 yarder on grass. In 2005 knowing his K was a choker he settled for a 46 yarder when he had 2nd and 2 and 3rd and 2 and that pitt 28. He easily could have made that a 35 yarder instead of a 46 yarder. matt Ryan had very little time left, Peyton had more time to get close for BOTh of those FG misses. I don't want to hear about drops and all that, all QBs have drops. This article is where you are getting your poor info from? what an awful article that is just making excuse after excuse for Peyton. It's interesting how there isn't a gif of the Polamalu INT that was called back. I explained all the playoff losses w/ the actual facts not the excuses. That is the worst article I have ever read and I see now where you have bee influenced. he had the lead in the final minute 4 times. 2012: had chance to run out clock, FAILED, had TWO chances in OT but FAILED. Was given 14 gift pts and still FAILED 2010: Needed ONE 1st down to ensure Vinatieri's kick would be final play of game, FAILED then watche dMark Sanchez do waht he couldn't do in almost the exact same spot in 2005 vs. Pitt. 2008 at SD: needed ONE 1st down to end game, FAILED. 4th down from Indy 1 giving P no room to puhnt and ensuring great FP for tying FG 2000 Miami: against legeandry choking D led O to 3 pts in final 3 qtrs. You can blame the D all you want but those losses are on the failures of the QB. You can throw whatever #s you want but just over 14 PPG in playoff losses is the most important #. when you are handed 14 pts at home there's no excuse to ever lose. he has the ball in his hands w/ chances to win or end games and has failed much more often than not.
they had less talent this year and won 11 games w/ a rookie. They started a 40+ yr old QB off his couch and Curtis Painter then the team quit.
Brady is a machine, there is no other way to put it. I highly doubt I will see another QB on his level (Was too young to see Montana or Marino era).
Excellent post. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with the bolded and I have been essentially arguing the same fundamental principle for years now. When people assess a quarterback's inherent worth SOLELY based on his teams Win/Loss record, they are doing a great disservice to logic and reason. Football is a TEAM sport. When we talk about a quarterback's Win/Loss record, that in and of itself, is MEANINGLESS (without proper context) because football is a TEAM sport . . . we aren't talking about Tennis here, folks. Having said all of that, I think it's pretty hard to argue for Manning over Brady in any reasonable way. Brady has simply played better in the biggest games of his career than Manning has in his. Putting the W/L record aside, it is has been pretty obvious that Brady handles big game pressure better than Manning does.
Great response, logical and sound reasoning......in regards to the Montana and Brady debate, I have seen both of them play and I can tell you for a fact I would take Montana over Brady, all the things you mentioned above and one more thing, Joe beat defenses that would have had a field day with Brady due to his ability to buy time, Brady could not buy time if his life depended on it.
Flacco is 7-4 vs Ryan's 1-3. It is a big difference. I guess you didn't see this from my earlier post "Interesting reads. I mean it's what I'm saying except better writing, more knowledge, and more detail. I should have Googled before I did any of this." So no, I painstakingly went through game recaps, box scores, game logs, and play by plays of each game and then when adding new people to my twitter feed, found the cold hard football facts website and started reading. Some interesting stuff on there, but as we see later on, you aren't a fan of statistics. I never mentioned drops, the article did. If you're gonna yell at me for drops then I'm not the right person. Also, you never addressed your inconsistencies when arguing QBs: 1)Brady scored 14 points in the 18-0 SB, and gave his defense a 4 point lead with 2:45 left on the clock. You blame the defense for letting Eli walk down the field and winning the game. The Patriots defense gets blamed for this loss? 2)Peyton Manning gave his defense a 7 point lead (scoring 21) with 1:09 left in the 4th and the defense gave 7 points to Flacco to tie the game. You blame Peyton for this loss? 3) With 57 seconds left, Peyton led AV to kick a 50 yard field goal to give IND a 2 point lead scoring 16 points total with 57 seconds. The defense/ST let the Jets win the game with 0:00 seconds left, you blame Peyton for this loss? 4) With 4:43 left in the 4th, Sanchez scored 7 points and a FG was blocked. ATL then goes down the field and scores a TD to take a 10-7 lead with 1:42, the Jets defense gets blamed for this loss? 5) With 5:54 in fourth, Sanchez scoring -7 points and 13 for our team, gives his defense a 3 points lead, they let Tebow score 7 with 1:06 left, you blame the Jets defense for this loss? A few consistencies I see. First one, Peyton scored more points in his two losses than Sanchez or Brady did. Second one is Peyton gave his defense the lead later than Brady or Sanchez did. Third thing I see, you don't blame the IND defense for these losses even though you blame the Jets D and Pats D for Sanchez's and Brady's losses. Here's another inconsistency: 1) PM: 2008 at SD: needed ONE 1st down to end game, FAILED. 4th down from Indy 1 giving P no room to puhnt and ensuring great FP for tying FG. Defense/ST lost game as Peyton watched on sideline. 2) TB: 2012 SB, needed one 1st down to end game, FAILED. Actually went 3 and out and threw an INT to enable the NYG comeback before reaching this point. Scored 0 points since the 11:25 mark in the 3rd. NYG won game as Brady watched on sideline. Threw an incomplete pass saving NYG a TO. 3) TB: 2012 vs BALL 2:46 left in game, needs one first down to end game, 3 and out FAILED. Defense won game while Brady watched on sideline. Threw an incomplete pass on 3rd down saving BAL a TO 4)TB: 2007 @ IND: 3:22 left in game up 3, needs one first down to end it, 3 and out, FAILED watch as Peyton won game vs his defense. Threw an incomplete pass on 3rd down saving IND a TO See how misleading your first down examples are? I just went through and made Tom Brady look like a bad QB. That's how misleading these first down requirements are from you. In no world is Tom Brady a bad QB, but when we hold him to the standards you hold Peyton Manning, he shrinks from the occasion too. My favorite part of your argument is when you say this "I explained all the playoff losses w/ the actual facts not the excuses" by using this excuse "I don't want to hear about drops and all that, all QBs have drops." by using this excuse " his K was a choker" and by using this excuse "You can throw whatever #s you want but just over 14 PPG in playoff losses is the most important #." Somehow you managed to blame his K being a choker on Manning himself, fantastic how that happens. Junc in your Miami example, you forgot the whole point that Peyton set up Vanderjagt for a 48 yard field goal after Vanderjagt had already made a 50 yarder on grass in that same game and also making 35-40 and 25-30 yard field goals. Just saying, you know he set up his kicker for a field goal his kicker already made from 2 yards farther out. He gets blamed for putting his kicker in a position to win the game from a spot he already made a FG from? That makes zero sense. I now see your argument. If you ignore every statistic, basic and advanced, and disregard all of them that show other defense would and have held on to the wins, Manning is to be blamed for these losses. That makes sense, throw out everything you disagree with, look at one stat of your choosing (PPG per loss) and judge a QB on that stat alone. By the way, it's 14.8 ppg if you throw out the fact for garbage time points (0), recovery for points (0), and return points (14). That 0.8 you left is kind of important because Brady has (7)(7)(7) for 15.33 ppg in losses. I'm not sure if you took away any extra points from PM but I don't think there was any place to take them away from besides the 14 return points in the BAL game this past weekend. Stats by themselves without context don't show much. You have to judge them against other stats. It's like saying Mark Sanchez has had 10 dropped INT. What does that mean if we don't know what other QBs have? What happens if the league average is 15 dropped INTs and Sanchez actually has bad luck. What if the dropped INT per pass attempt is .02 and Sanchez is at .20, then Sanchez is getting far luckier than the rest of the league. You can't drop a stat, not explain it, not compare it to anybody else, and call it a day. You also never explained how you got the 14, you just said it with no reference. THis isn't twitter, there isn't a 140 character limit. I had to figure out you took away the return points from this weekend but that leaves it at 14.8, did you take anything else, round incorrectly, purposely leave it a round number? That's why all the links were very important. They showed the stats of not just Peyton (pro football reference wasn't even about Peyton, it was a study independent of end result/player) and then compare it to other players. It also has to be explained how it was calculated. Anyways you really haven't addressed anything except holding Peyton Manning to standard you don't hold other QBs to. When we hold Tom Brady to the same standard, he looks terrible, which means this is pretty bad standard as he is top 10 QB all time most likely. The thing is, Brady hasn't handled "Big pressure" since 2004 very well. He has actually played pretty bad in his 2 winning AFC championships since and the other afc championship he couldn't make a comeback against Peyton, actually throwing an INT on the last ditch attempt. I'm just showing it is very close and we unfairly judge QBs, specifically Peyton in this case, based on past narrative. It's like the people who foolishly call Brady a "system QB". I see people calling Peyton a choker or blaming all the PO losses on him in the same level ridiculous as the sytem QB argument. THe other argument is LeBron isn't the best player in the NBA, I had that last year with someone here in the BS section. Anything this ridiculous, I like to double check to make sure I'm not crazy, then respond. Usually if I'm crazy, usually my baseball related thoughts, I find article after article trashing my position with nothing to support it. Thanks for the insight. I watch the old games on NFL Network and stuff, and the game was so different then too. What amazes me with Montana is he would go on tears during the playoffs and win. WE don't see that these days. Every winning super bowl QB has a dip in their play during their SB winning run, something Montana avoided. Statistically, since I didn't see the game, his play didn't drop at times. The only recent comparable one is Brees but he only did it one year. I grew up Brady and Manning. LAte 90s my first football memories. When reading all the articles I linked and the ones I didn't, a current name that jumps out is Aaron Rodgers, He has had two magnificent regular seasons and has gotten over the SB hump early in his career. I think he could turn into a very special player one day. He obviously needs the help from his D and run game which he hasn't gotten much of recently, but man he jumped off the page for basically everything and rightfully so. He also had a much smaller sample size than a Peyton or Brady so he might not keep it up.
