If you aren't going to participate in the poll and have nothing to add to it, then just shut up and move to the next thread. Seriously champ, there was absolutely no need to criticize a perfectly good poll that was just trying to stimulate discussion. You aren't happy unless you're derailing any and all threads here.
He was the same player for ONE SEASON! That's it ONE SEASON It has everything to do with everything when you use his rookie season to put up a stat that lowers his contribution. Quit acting like a rookie receiver is the same as one who's in his 3rd or 4th year when you know they aren't the same player. There's only two receivers in recent memory that put up significant stats as rookies. Boldin and R. Moss. When you include his rookie stats and the one season when he put up big numbers which was a total anomaly. Not the norm. Sure his best rec and yardage years were in TB. Yopu keep subtracting 2001 but that's not fair. Even subtracting '01 and '03 his I'm not subtracting 01 junc. I'm pointing out over and over and over again that that season was not the norm for Keyshawn. No matter how you slice it he was nothing more than a 70 catch above average receiver after he left NY. Yes he would have caught 100 passes with us. Coles probably wouldn't have been drafted in 2000 by the NYJ if we still had Keyshawn. Harrison wasn't considered a top of the class receiver until 1999. This is a moot point. Sure it is. 1 1/2 more opportunities can amount to another 10-12 receptions per season. That puts him at 95-102 reception range with the NYJ. His per game averages were nearly identical when you factor in his rookie season when most receivers aren't playing at top form yet. You're just being silly at this point. I said he was a top receiver from 97-99 which he was. Yes, 2001 - the one great season he had post NYJ - was a season he never repeated. Does that make him a Top receiver post NYJ? NO! Let's use your averages from TB since you believe he was better in TB than in NYJ. This is his 4 year prorated average 81 rec 1047 yds 1996 - 63 rec 844 yds (pro rated 72 rec 965 yds) Below Avg rec. / Avg. Yds 1997 - 70 rec 963 yds Below avg. rec. / Avg. Yds 1998 - 83 rec 1131 yds above Avg rec. / Well above avg. yds 1999 -89 rec 1170 yds Above avg rec. / well above avg yds 2000 - 71 rec 874 yds below avg. rec. / below avg yds 2001 - 106 rec 1266 yds well above avg rec/ well above avg yds 2002 - 76 rec 1088 yds below avg rec / above avg yds 2003 - 45 rec 600 yds (pro rated 72 rec 960 yds) below avg rec / avg yds 2004 - 70 rec 981 yds below avg / rec avg yds 2005 - 71 rec 839 yds below avg / rec below avg yds He was below average in receptions his first two years. Not a surprise to anyone who understands that it typically takes WRs 3 years to fully develop. He was at or above average in Receptions and Receiving yards the next two seasons. After he left TB he was above Average in receiving only once and yds twice. yeah, I guess he was just as good after he left NY as he was in NY. Thanks. Nope. The above just proved that his one great year was what it was...One great year.
^oh wait...I forgot..Tampa didn't want to throw the ball to one of the top receivers in the league that they traded 2 1st round draft picks for they'd rather throw the ball to the TEs and RBs so that's why his numbers were down even though TB threw the ball 75 more times than the NYJ did. Very logical
I have already proven that's not the case, no matter what way we look at it he was virtually the same player post NY as he was in NY. You are right but quit acting like a WR in his last year or 2 is like he was in his prime when he had an old Vinny and a terrible Bledsoe as his QBs. The problem is you want to take away Key's worst season in NY and his best season in TB to make your point but all the seasons count. 80 recs wasn't the norm in NY either, 2 of 4 years. His #s went down but TB also threw also less in 2000 than the Jets did in '98 or '99. They threw it 433 times in 2000 and the Jets threw it 532 times in '98 and 476 in '99. In '01 and '02 Tampa started throwing more and he caught a career high 106 in '01 and had almost 80 recs and over 1,000 yds in '02 despite Tampa spreading the ball around more to the backs and TEs. Coles wasn't drafted b/c we lost Key, We wouldn't have had a combo of Chad and one of the 2 DEs if Key stayed but I think we would have still drafted Coles. Coles was a 3rd rd pick not a 1st rounder. The one year he would have had to get near 100 recs was 2000 when we threw the ball all over the place BUT if we had Key we are not falling behind each game like we did in 2000 and we would have wound up throwing alot less meaning less opportunities and Key somewhere in the 80s again w/ that # not getting any hihger thanks to an emerging Coles. If Key stayed then I don't think we draft Moss in 2001 but we would have drafted Coles. Who cares when he was considered a top of the class WR? The facts are he was as Key, if not better, in '98 and he was clearly better in both seasons combined. So every one of those extra opportunites would have gone to him and not to any of our other WRs? Let's do this one more time. NY per game averages(w/o 1996) vs. post NY: NY: 5 recs, 68 yds, .48 TDs PNY: 4.9 recs, 62 yds, .31 TDs Very similar #s even lopping off his rookie year(which isn't fair since he was a starter and we threw the ball an astounding 629 times- 40 times per game!) the one area where he lacked after leaving NY was TDs. He was our main EZ threat here where he wasn't treated like that in TB. I never said he was better in TB, I said he was the same player in NY and after he left NY and the #s prove that. That's a silly way to look at things b/c '03 is factoring in. it's not fair to credit him w/ a 45 rec 600 yd season when he only played 10 games which is why I took a per game average and his #s are nearly identical. For the last time, maybe it sinks in after reading it for the 50th time: Per game averages: NY(62 games): 4.9 recs, 66 yds, .5 TDs PNY(105 games): 4.9 recs, 62 yds, .31 TDs -The ONLY year he was top 5 in recs was 2001 w/ TB. -He had 2 top 10 rec yd seasons, #10 w/ the Jets in '98 and #7 w/ TB in '01. -Had 7 100 yd games in 62 games w/ Jets, had 15 in 105 games post NY. All the evidence points to Key being just as good post NY as he was here. You can tale away his worst NY year and his best post NY year to try to help your argument but unfortunately for you those #s count and the facts show he was as productive when he left as he was when he played for us.
And I have proven to you over and over again that it is the case. He wasn’t he wasn’t he wasn’t the same player after he left. Sorry but you’re manipulation of the stats doesn’t prove that he was. I’ve been comparing his prime years…you like to add in his rookie years as if it should have the same value. 98 NYJ 83 rec 1131 yds 99 NYJ 89 rec 1170 yds 00 TB 71 rec 874 yds 01 TB 106 rec 1266 yds 02 TB 76 rec 1088 yds 03 TB (pace) 72 rec 960 yds Those are his prime years. Years 3 thru 8 He had 89 receptions in 1999 with Rick Mirer and Ray Lucas throwing the ball to him.. but I guess we should include the years Bledsoe was the QB in Dallas And it’s not like his Dallas/Carolina stats were all that much different from the ones he had in TB All I keep seeing from you is excuses excuses of why he wasn’t the same player. TB distributed the ball to the RBs and TEs, he had Bledsoe, TB threw less than the in 2000. He wasn’t the same player. Sorry you’re whole fatally flawed argument is now being brought down to excuses. The last two years hew was in NY he caught 80+ passes. So his rookie season he didn’t and his 2nd season he didn’t. I know when we drafted Coles. I don’t believe we still would have drafted Coles in the 3rd. We would still have needed a TE and DL depth. Even if we still drafted Coles he would have taken passes from Dedric Ward NOT Keyshawn. We used the TB picks to take Abraham and Becht. Pennington came from our own pick. Whatever…no he wasn’t. 1998 Keyshawn was voted 1st Team All Pro by Pro Football Weekly. Here are the WRs who received All Pro votes that year: Randy Moss Antonio Freeman Jimmy Smith Keyshawn Johnson Ed McCaffery Eric Moulds There’s no Marvin Harrison on that list…hmmm It’s not fair to not include his rookie stats but it’s okay to complain about his stats when he was a starter and had two veteran QBs throwing him the ball. Yeah, junc that makes a lot of sense. Here is a very simple breakdown of his career Post NYJ. The per game break down is below 2000 below average 2001 above average – remarkable, amazing season. 30 more receptions than his next highest year Post NYJ. 2002 below average 2003 below average 2004 below average 2005 , 2006 should not count according to you even though he was the No. 1 WR in Dallas in 2005 excuse No. 3. Fine he was the same player…Let’s look at his per game numbers by season. It should prove that he was the same player throughout I would think. Code: [u]Rec/Gm[/u] [u]Yds/Gm[/u] [u]Career[/u] 4.9 63.3 [u]Above/Below Avg REC[/u] [u]Above/Below Avg YDS[/u] 1996 4.5 60.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1997 4.4 60.2 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1998 5.2 70.7 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 1999 5.6 73.1 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2000 4.4 54.6 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2001 7.1 84.4 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2002 4.8 68.0 Below Career Average [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2003 4.5 60.0 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2004 4.4 61.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2005 4.4 52.4 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2006 4.4 50.9 Below Career Average Below Career Average Like I said ONE GREAT YEAR which inflates his numbers. I’m using the stats that you want to use…per game numbers. Silly way to look at things? By looking at everything equally and not inflated like you do by including the 2001 season!!! The only way it’s silly is because it disproves your theory that he was the same player! Factoring in 2003 I put in his pace!!!!!!!! I even said that!!!!! Keep all of his stats…including his rookie year. Because everyone knows rookie WRs perform at the same level as guys in their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th seasons. It still proves only one thing.. He had one great year after he left NY and it inflates all of his stats to help your argument as horribly and fatally flawed as it is. I think the problem here is that you look at stats in whatever way you think can prove your point. That’s probably why you can’t see that he was not the same after he left. And why you are struggling with understanding the difference between a rookie WR and one who’s been in the league for awhile. Or maybe why you are struggling to see that minus one great year in TB the rest of his career was rather pedestrian (average and unimpressive). Tell me do you actually think TB wanted a guy who would give them 100 receptions in one season and in the 70’s the rest when they traded 2 1st round picks for him? All the evidence that I keep presenting to you proves only one thing…he regressed big time after he left. Sorry. Thanks.
'98-'99 avg.: 86 recs, 1151 yds '00-'03 avg.(w/ '03 pace): 82 recs, 1047 yds AGAIN, the #s are very similar. No matter what way we measure the #s always come out similar. Why is that? Excuses? I'm just trying to counter you taking off his worst season in NY and his best season after NY to try to make your argument. Every way you look at the #s they were similar, that's a fact. I have proven it over and over again. My point w/ the QBs was he was older and playing w/ old, crappy QBs but I didn't take those years out like you wanted to in his rookie year when the jets threw the ball over 600 times. It's a fact Tb did distribute the ball more to the TEs and RBs, TB did throw les in '00 than the Jets in '98 & '99. Where am I amking things up? These are facts, fatcs I do not need to post but you refuse to acknowledge the clear similarities in his NY and post NY #s. When you have another talented WR it's going to affect the top guys #s. That would have been 4 capable WR's and the difference would not have been as greta in '00 but as Coles developed in '01 it definitely would have. It would have affected Key and Wayne's #s. Pennignton nwas a luxury pick, had we not had 4 1st rounders we would not have slecetd him. if we don't trade Key we only have 2 1st rd picks and we would not have taken Chad. Pro football weekly? The AP names the real All-Pro team. Prorate harrison's '98 #s vs. Key's #s: Key: 83 recs, 1131 yds, 13.6 avg., 10 TDs Marvin: 79 recs, 1035 yds, 13.1 avg., 9 TDs Very similar, now let's look at their per game averages for '98 & '99: Key: 5.4 recs, 72 yds, .56 TDs Marvin: 6.2 recs, 87 yds, .68 TDs Combined #s: Key(32 games): 172 recs, 2301 yds, 18 TDs Marvin(28 games): 174 recs, 2439 yds, 19 TDs Despite playing 4 less games he put up better #s in all categories. By per game average it's not even close. Harrison averaged 87 rec yds a game, Key had 11 of 32 games w/ 87 or more yards in '98 & '99. Key also had 6 100 yd rec games while Harrsion had 11. Harrison also got the real AP award from the AP. Why are you using the roll eyes icon when the only reason I brought that up is b/c you want to take away his worst season in NY and his best season post NY. Those #s are very similar, I just do not know what you are looking at. His really good seasons skew those averages, all this is saying is he was really good for 2 years in NY and 1 year in TB and the rest of his career was pretty average. We knew this already. 68 yds a game in '02 in Tampa isn't good enough but 70 in '98 w/ the Jets is? 2 yards? See hopw silly this is? There's an 11 yd difference btw his best TB year to his best NY year but only a 2 yard difference btw his 2nd best TB year to his 2nd best NY year. The difference in recs is a rec and a half from his best TB year to his best NY year and it's less than half a rec difference from #2 in TB and #2 in NY. He had 2 big years in Tampa You are a great poster but you are nuts in this discussion. The #s are very similar across the board from NY to post NY. I really do not know what the argument is? He was the same player after he left NY. The #s prove that. and his 1 great year in TB was better than his 2 rteally good years in NY(recs and yds). You can use the rookie excuse all you want but as an offense we threw the ball an astounding 629 times- 40 times a game! rookie or not he had his opportunities. We led the league in pass attempts in 1996, Chrebet a year earlier had 66 recs playing on an offense that was MUCH worse, w/ lesser QBs and 40 less attempts and Chrebet was coming out of Hofstra as an UDFA while Key was coming out of USC as the #1 overall pick. The problem is you overrate how good he was w/ us and underrate how good he was when he left and how good the WRs in the league became during that time. He had ONE greta seaosn in TB but he only had 2 really good seasons here. You act like he was great for 4 years then dropped off. His '97-'99 were basically the same as his '00-'02 and those were his 6 prime years. The rest of his career was basically average but those 6 prime years he was near the best in the league and he spent 3 here and 3 in TB. It's not that difficult to see, the #s reflect that but fo some reason you are too caught up in his rookie year and trying to take away his '01 season. :rofl: What evidence have you shown? The only thing you did show was his averages based on his career averages showing he had 1 more good season in NY than TB. That wasn't earth shattering news- we KNEW that but all in all it was proven his #s were very simialr in NY as they were post NY.
Very simple answer...2001 inflates his total average stats. 3 of the 4 years he was average. 1 great year. 3 average years. It's excuses. His worst season in NY was his rookie year. This isn't some abnormal thing. This happens to nearly every rookie WR. Comparing his rookie year to his 4th, 5th or 6th seasons aren't comparing apples to apples. Total speculation. We don't even know if we still draft Coles with Keyshawn on the roster. Again..total speculation. We had no future QB and Testaverde was just coming off of a torn achilles. We still take Pennington. Harrison didn't garner ANY 1st team or 2nd team All Pro votes in 1998 including the AP. The AP 1st team WRs were Moss and Freeman Because you think comparing his rookie season with any of his TB seasons are the same. When they are clearly not the same. You're the one who brought up per game averages, and his 02 stats were higher than his career per game average. It's fine...but his season was unimpressive as a whole. One. 2001. Keyshawn was entering his prime when he put up those two big seasons. He should have continued on that trend when he was traded but outside of one season he did not. He wasn't the same player. He regressed and it's too bad because had he stayed here he would have continued to put up the big numbers. And he had 2 years in NY where he was better than every other season after he left minus one. Which tells the whole story...he wasn't the same after he left. 2 great seasons out of 4. The two seasons that aren't considered great seasons were his 1st and 2nd seasons in the league. He went to 2 Pro Bowls during those four years and only 1 after he left. No. I act like he was great in 98-99 and then dropped off. It only makes every logical sense that WRs in their rookie years aren't that great! Of course you shouldn't compare his rookie season to those of his prim. During his prime 6 seasons he only had 3 great seasons and 3 average seasons. You act like he was great in TB when he wasn't. He had one very very good year and that was it. Yes, his total average numbers were similar. Too bad most WRs (Certainly the top ones) get better after their 1st couple of years. Not regress to barely better. Code: [u]Rec/Gm[/u] [u]Yds/Gm[/u] [u]Career[/u] 4.9 63.3 [u]Above/Below Avg REC[/u] [u]Above/Below Avg YDS[/u] 1996 4.5 60.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1997 4.4 60.2 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1998 5.2 70.7 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 1999 5.6 73.1 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2000 4.4 54.6 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2001 7.1 84.4 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2002 4.8 68.0 Below Career Average [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2003 4.5 60.0 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2004 4.4 61.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2005 4.4 52.4 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2006 4.4 50.9 Below Career Average Below Career Average
I am pretty much done w/ this, I have proven my points and there's no need to keep rehashing everything but I'll make a few final points. '98 or '99 inflates his NY #s, do we take one of those years out? He was the #1 overall pick on a team that threw the ball 40 times a game and he started 11 games that year. Still taking Coles is specualtion even though I think we still would have taken him BUt there's no doubt w/ot the extra picks that we would not have taken Chad. Remmeber Lucas had gone 6-3 and played well to end '99 and we had Vinny coming back. Chad was a luxury pick b/c we had 4 1st rounders. OK and Key didn't get any AP votes for 1999 while Harrison was on the AP first team. Harrison was clearly better over '98 & '99. He started 11 games on a team that threw the ball 40 times a game. His #s count, it's not like he was Coles who didn't start a game and caught 22 passes as a rookie. he was the #1 overall pick and strated 11 games on a team that threw it 40 times a game. Just so I get this staright- his 1998 season was a big season averaging 5.2 recs and 70.7 yards but his '02 season wasn't averaging 4.8 and 68 yds? If you say so. he did continue on, he had an adjustment year in '00 but still put up decent #s then was 4th in recs in '01 and had a '98-'99 like season in '02. His best season was in Tampa, his next 2 were in NY, his next best was in Tampa. It averages out no matter what way you look at it. Of his top 4 seasons 2 were in NY and 2 in Tampa. He dropped of except for the fact that he posted career highs in recs and yardage after he left. I don't act like he was great in TB, I have been saying he was basically the same player in TB that he was here and the #s back that up. I think he was better here BUT there wasn't much of a difference. His 6 prime seasons saw 2 really good ones in NY and 1 average season while in TB he had 1 great season and 2 avg. seasons. It averages out no matter what way you look at it. He continued his good play in TB then leveled off to be an average WR, there's nothing wrong w/ that. Key was never going to be a Harrison or TO type. He wasn't explosive enough, he was a great possession WR who would make the tough catch over the middle. That takes a toll on players, I don't know if that's why he leveled off but I didn't watch as closely in TB, Dal or Car as I did in NY. Again, no matter what way you look at it he put up very similar #s per game while he was in NY and after he left NY.
with or without his 2001 numbers the rest of his career were below 98 and 99. Yep.. And he was still a rookie. A ROOKIE! But continue on comparing him as a rookie to him as a 4th year player. Yup that makes a lot of sense Should you use Coles' stats during his rookie year to compare him to his 3rd season before he left? He had more receptions...More yards and he went to the Pro Bowl in 1998. Now there's another excuse...the adjustment year. yikes. 98-99 were better years than in 02. Stats have already proven that. Yes, and his 4th best season was 76 receptions for 1088 yards. Above Average. That's not that spectacular. Yes, that one truly great year. 2001. And the 2 really good ones were his last two. Had he stayed here he would have likely continued on that trend. Its too bad he didn't stay here because he would have been an 80-90 catch guy for another 4-5 seasons as in the trend he was on before being traded instead of a 70 reception guy. He wasn't an 80-90 reception guy after he left. One great year where he caught 30 more passes than he would ever do again doesn't make him an 80-90 catch receiver. You haven't proven your point junc. You've only continued to ignore very basic information. One is that rookie WRs don't perform the same as they do when they are in their prime. You still want to compare them as if they are apples to apples. You continue to use per game averages and yet not acknowledge those averages are inflated by one season where he caught 30% more passes than he would ever do again Post NYJ. I'm glad that you have acknowledged that he was average after he left NY, but he wasn't average in 98/99. 2 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro (PFW) selection say otherwise. Code: [u]Rec/Gm[/u] [u]Yds/Gm[/u] [u]Career[/u] 4.9 63.3 [u]Above/Below Avg REC[/u] [u]Above/Below Avg YDS[/u] 1996 4.5 60.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1997 4.4 60.2 Below Career Average Below Career Average 1998 5.2 70.7 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 1999 5.6 73.1 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2000 4.4 54.6 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2001 7.1 84.4 [b]Above Career Average[/b] [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2002 4.8 68.0 Below Career Average [b]Above Career Average[/b] 2003 4.5 60.0 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2004 4.4 61.3 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2005 4.4 52.4 Below Career Average Below Career Average 2006 4.4 50.9 Below Career Average Below Career Average I'm glad this debate is over.
