Ok, so he only had 71 TDs. It is still a lot more than the 28 TDs scored during Sauer's career. It is pretty hard to say that a player had better career stats than a guy who scored more than twice as many TDs as he did.
Okay, I just wasn't sure where you got the 84 from. 28 TD's in a MUCH shorter career. Besides, it doesn't make any difference. I don't need stats for my argument, because it goes beyond stats. Walker put up some nice numbers. But over a 3 year span Sauer was in the same conversation as guys like Lance Alworth, Otis Taylor, Lionel Taylor, and Don Maynard (who I think Sauer was better than).
Typical would be an overstatement, since (as you say) he was totally dominant on that day. He was certainly consistently excellent, and among the top linemen in the game from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s (as being named to the second-team alltime All-AFL team would indicate). As I (and others) have noted before, it's tough to get too worked up over players not being in the Pro Football HoF, given how difficult it is to get in, but I do think that if Hill had played in the NFL instead of the AFL, he would at least have gotten much more consideration (he was never even nominated). I think that that is true of quite a few former AFL players, including Fred Arbanas, Houston Antwine, Johnny Robinson, Cookie Gilchrist, and of course our own Gerry Philbin and Larry Grantham.
Key's #s stayed about the same w/o Wayne while Wayne's #s took a nice dip. Key was a top 5 WR w/ and w/o Wayne.
One - no they weren't the same w/o Wayne With Wayne he averaged 76 rec 1027 yds 7 TDs w/o Wayne he averaged 72 rec 923 yds 4 TDs Two - Keyshawn was NOT a Top 5 WR after he left NY 1. Harrison 2. TO 3. R. Moss 4. T. Holt 5. C. Johnson 6. J. Horn 7. H. Ward 8. K. Johnson 9. E. Moulds
I already posted this, averages per game: Key: 4.87 recs, 63 yds, .38 TDs Wayne: 3.82 recs, 48 yds, .27 TDs Per game averages w/o each other: Key(2000-2006, 105 games): 4.85 recs, 62 yds, .31 TDs Wayne(1995, 2000-2005, 93 games): 3.4 recs, 42 yds, .26 TDs His rec and yardage averages were nearly identical. His TD rate dipped a little. he had a 100+ rec season, he finished 4th in recs in 2001. he was just as good in TB as he was here. Remember he had 3 PB seasons, 2 w/ NY and 1 w/ TB BUT Chrebet was hurt for a good portion of 1999 so he did it w/ Dedric Ward on the other side for most of the season and did it w/ Ray Lucas at QB. -In recs Key was top 10 3 times- '98, '99 and '01. '01 was his best finish as he finished 4th. -In rec yds he finished top 10 twice, once w/ NYJ and once w/ TB. I'm not sure Key was ever top 5 more like Top 10 and he was in NY and TB, w/ and w/o Chrebet while Chrebet was close to top 10 in '98 w/ Key and never close after key left.
Top 5 from 97-99 C. Carter T. Brown J. Smith A. Freeman I think Keyshawn definitely fits in with them.
Key wasn't yet a top WR in 1997 and some guy nnamed Randy Moss exploded on the scene ion 1998 so that would push him down a peg and either way if he was top5 in '98 & '99 then not top 5 in the early '00s w/ TB that has nothing to do w/ Chrebet but had to do w/ the explosion of really good WRs. He was the same player in TB w/o Chrebet that he was here. His #s stayed the same, Chrebet's went down. Other WRs passed his #s. Other top WRs in that time frame were Eric Moulds, Moss, Owens, Rod Smith, Marvin Harrison, Muhsin Muhammed. it's very debateable whether he was top 5.
I said from 97-99. Not each year individually. Harrison and Muhammed didn't explode until 99. Owens and Moulds until 2000. So no, they weren't top WR's in that time frame...at least not near Keyshawn in the Top 5. Rod Smith certainly should be included though. But I will say this again...Keyshawn's numbers did not stay the same when he left NY. Take away one very good season he was only above average.
Key wasn't a top WR in 1997 so how could it be 1997-1999? TO had as good of a '97 season as Key so why does he have to wait until 2000? In '98 TO averaged 3 more Yards per rec and scored 4 more TDs. 1997-1999: Keyshawn: 242 recs, 3264 yds, 13.5 avg., 23 TDs Harrison: 247 recs, 3305 yds, 13.4 avg., 25 TDs muhammed picked up the pace in '98, '98 & '99 he was as good as Key along w/ Moulds. TO had fewer recs but a better yards per rec and scores more TDs than Key from '97-'99. Now we can remove seasons from key's years in Tampa? His 100+ rec season wasn't his best in Tampa so should we remove '02 as well? I will post this again: Key in NY: 4.87 recs, 63 yds, .38 TDs Key after NY: 4.85 recs, 62 yds, .31 TDs The #s are almost identical and that includes winding down being a #2 WR his last couple of seasons.
Yes, take away Keyshawn's one season in TB where he caught 100+ passes...It was an anomoly. Same with Harrison (within the 97-99 timeframe). He caught 247 receptions from 97-99...115 of them in 1999! 2002 was not Keyshawn's best season in TB. Here are his stats after he left NY. What about this is anything but unimpressive? Code: Season Team G Rec Yds Y/G Avg Lng YAC 1stD TD 2000 Tampa Bay 16 71 874 54.6 12.3 38 3 49 8 2001 Tampa Bay 15 106 1266 84.4 11.9 47 3.1 67 1 2002 Tampa Bay 16 76 1088 68 14.3 76 3.5 53 5 2003 Tampa Bay 10 45 600 60 13.3 39 2.7 33 3 2004 Dallas 16 70 981 61.3 14 39 2.9 53 6 2005 Dallas 16 71 839 52.4 11.8 34 2.9 46 6 2006 Carolina 16 70 815 50.9 11.6 40 3.1 42 4 You mentioned 2003 as him having a great year before being suspended from the team. He was on pace for 72 receptions and 960 yards. And here are his stats while he was here Code: 1996 NY Jets 14 63 844 60.3 13.4 50 2 42 8 *1997 NY Jets 16 70 963 60.2 13.8 39 3.2 50 5 *1998 NY Jets 16 83 1131 70.7 13.6 41 3.5 60 10 *1999 NY Jets 16 89 1170 73.1 13.1 65 4.7 57 8 Sure Moulds and Muhammad picked up the pace but they weren't near Keyshawn during those years. They were as good and probably better than Keyshawn after that, but not during 97-99. This is a silly argument where we recite stats, but Keyshawn became above average after he left NY.
So big seasons do not count? Why is that? Key's best season in TB was '02 when you combine recs, yards per and TDs. He had 3 of 4 seasons in NY w/ 70 or more recs, after he left he had 6 of 7 seasons w/ 70 or more recs and the lone season he did not have 70 recs was the year he got suspended where he was on pace for over 70 recs. When did I say he was having a great year? Moulds was every bit as good as Key, if not better, in 1998. Key had more recs but Moulds had more yards and a much higher yards per rec. Moulds '98 & '99: 132 recs, 2362 yds, 17.9 yards per, 16 TDs Key '98 & '99: 172 recs, 2301 yds, 13.4 yards per, 18 TDs Moulds also played 2 less games. Muhammed '98-'99: 164 recs, 2194 yds, 13.4 yards per, 14 TDs these guys weren't near Key? Come on. it's silly b/c the #s prove that he was basically the same player in NY and after he left NY. His per game averages were nearly identical.
I'm not saying big seasons don't count, but let's be honest here, they were anomolies not the norm for Key after he left NY. 70 receptions per season is above average! 80+ receptions like he had in 98 and 99 were much better. Key averaged 70 receptions per season in TB. Not terrible by any stretch of the imagination but hardly great. Moulds was a much more of a deep threat than Key was. Am I supposed to be impressed by inflated yards numbers? Keyshawn was so much better than those guys during the 97-99 seasons. It's not even debateable no matter how the stats are twisted. He WAS NOT the same player after he left NY. That's why this silly stats debate is pointless. If 2002 was his best season in TB you've proved my point. 68 ypg is hardly impressive. He was becoming a dominant receiver in NY. When he left he became an ordinary above average receiver.
But you act like it was the norm when he was here. he had 2 really good seasons in 4 years. He never had any Moss-like seasons here. He averaged 76 recs in NY, he averaged 75 in TB and that includes the 45 in '03 when he played only 10 games. In his 3 full seasosn there he averaged 84. Moulds was every buit as good as Key in '98 & '99 and I loved Key and it pains me to argue against him but you act like he was Moss-like in '98 & '99 and nobody was close to him which just isn't the case. He was a top WR but not THE top and it's very debateable if he was top 5 or top 10. If you include '97 yeah b/c those guys broke out in '98 but 2 of those 3 years those players were as good as Key if not better. He had a better Yards per recption in 2002, TB didn't use him in the Red Zone as much. That was the biggest difference. Tampa also spread the ball around more. In '98 we had 4 guys w/ 30 or more recs, in 1999 we had 3 guys w/ 30 or more recs while in Tampa in '01 they had 5 players w/ 30 or more recs and in '02 they had 6. That's less balls to be thrown Key's way and yet he still averaged nearly identical #s on a per game basis.
Two really good seasons out of the 4 he was here. He was here during his rookie year – not many rookie WR’s have 80+ receptions 1000 yds. You must at least acknowledge that. In his 2nd season in the league he had 70 receptions for 960 yds. Not bad for his 2nd season in the league. His 3rd and 4th years in the league he really came into his own and was at the top of the league. Again factoring in his rookie season lowers his avg here just like the 45 lowers his avg in TB. But you like to include the 100+ receptions because it increases his average yet the 106 receptions he had were clearly an anomaly. You need to factor the anomalies. One great season (Sorry, 2002 isn’t all that impressive) does not mean Keyshawn was better after he left. They all came in the same year…why can’t I include 1997 when comparing the three? Just because it took them longer? Plus, again…Keyshawn in 98/99 was better than Moulds. Moulds comes in right behind him sure, but he wasn’t every bit as good. He had 3 monster games but everything else was rather pedestrian. I didn’t say Keyshawn was THE top receiver. I said he was on his way to becoming a dominant receiver. He easily was in the Top 10 and arguably in the Top 5. I will at least say he was knocking on the door to being a Top 5 receiver at that point if he wasn’t there yet. The Jets threw 149 less passes in 98 and 99 (75 per season) than TB did in 01 and 02 and they completed 119 less than TB, so of course the Jets should have less guys with 30 or more receptions. Keyshawn didn’t have less balls thrown his way in 01 and 02 than he did in 98 and 99 though. I will say this one more time. Keyshawn was on his way to becoming a dominant receiver and when he left he became above average. And to conclude, my whole original point (because we have clearly gotten off track) was that Chrebet deserves a lot more credit than he has been getting. He certainly deserves to be considered one of our greats.
He played 10 games in '03 andhad 45 recs, in his rookie year he had 63 recs. That's a big difference and we also factor in his last couple of years that he spent as a #2 WR w/ less opportunities. If we take out the 106 then we need to takwe out the 45 and when we do that we get: Avg. in NY: 76 recs, 1027 yds, 13.5 avg., 8 TDs avg. in TB('00 & '02): 74 recs, 981 yds, 13.3 avg., 7 TDs Thge #s are almost identical. No matter what way you slice it he produced as much away from the Jets as he did w/ the Jets. You can factor in '97 but in '98 &'99 Harrison was better and Moulds was just as good. I agree, I think he was in the discussion. I'm not sure he was top 5 but he was in the discussion. yes he did, that's less than 5 more attempts a game so unless all 5 would have been going to key he had less opportunity. TB liked to throw it to the RBs & TEs more, the Jets threw it more to the WRs. In those particular years the Jets completed 237 passes to RBs and TEs while TB completed 335. That's almost 100 more opportunities to catch a ball. Key was still a top WR until he was banished by TB in 2003. The problem is on aper game basis Key's #s stayed almost exactly the same after hge left the Jets while Chrebets went down. Wayne needed Key alot more than Key needed Wayne and this is why Wayne doesn't belong in the discussion for best Jets WR of all time.
I agree to a point, but I also think Wayne belongs in this poll, he is one of the all-time Jet WRs. Having said that, he's gotten way more votes than he should have, especially at the expense of Keyshawn and Wesley Walker.
