Well yeah, that makes sense...the more posts a thread gets, the more attention it will get... But unfortunately, as I mentioned a little while ago, I dont have as much free time to dedicate to this now as I did earlier, when we first started the draft I mean, hell, I havent even made a team bio yet :/
I didn't think this deserved a new thread, so I'm posting it here.. Wilbur Marshall hit on Joe Ferguson
^I saw that hit last night while looking around youtube. I don't recall ever having seen that play until last night. Look at the disparity in some of the vote totals (yet another reason why voting is screwy): through Week 3, the total number of votes in games involving: Wolfe Tone- 87 Cakes- 76 1028- 74 Jonathan_Vilma- 73 JetGreen- 68 DonnieIsTheKing- 67 Murrell2878- 66 MSUJet- 64 ganooch- 60 kevin68- 55 This makes sense as Wolfe Tone and myself bump game threads often. On the other end, ganooch and kevin68 are pretty quiet. MSUJet85 has had real low scores the past two weeks (13-3 and 11-6). I voted for MSUJet85 last week (one of only two games where I voted for the eventual losing team). I thought he could have won if he got involved in his game thread a little more. In theory, each game should have the same number of votes. The voters may not be aware that there are five games each week. This also makes me think some voters may not know what this tournament is all about. (Heck, it took us till late in Week 3 to explain the purpose of the four backup players on each team.) What may be happening in some cases is people may be clicking on a game thread when they see it as the lead thread in the NFL forum. They go look at it and then a few moments later may cast a vote, not even realizing there are other games.
The NFL put out a book titled NFL's Greatest: Pro Football's Best Players, Teams, and Games in 2000. The book includes the 100 greatest players of all time. I will list the players and who drafted them in our tournament. (They were presented in alphabetical order). Code: Herb Adderley, CB- MSUJet85 Lance Alworth, WR- ganooch Lem Barney, CB- Cakes Sammy Baugh, QB- Wolfe Tone (drafted as punter) Chuck Bednarik, LB/C- 1028 Bobby Bell, LB- Cakes Raymond Berry, E- Murrell2878 Fred Biletnikoff, WR- Jonathan_Vilma Mel Blount, CB- Jonathan_Vilma Terry Bradshaw, QB- kevin68 Jim Brown, FB- ganooch Roosevelt Brown, T- 1028 Willie Brown, CB- Jonathan_Vilma Buck Buchanan, DT- Cakes Dick Butkus, LB- Cakes Earl Campbell, RB- ganooch Larry Csonka, FB- JetGreen Willie Davis, DE- not drafted Eric Dickerson, RB- Jonathan_Vilma Mike Ditka, TE- MSUJet85 Tony Dorsett, RB- ganooch John Elway, QB- DonnieIsTheKing Brett Favre, QB- Wolfe Tone Tom Fears, E- not drafted Otto Graham, QB- Murrell2878 Red Grange, HB- not drafted Darrell Green, CB- Murrell2878 Joe Greene, DT- MSUJet85 Forrest Gregg, G/T- ganooch Jack Ham, LB- Cakes John Hannah, G- Cakes Franco Harris, RB- DonnieIsTheKing Mel Hein, C- DonnieIsTheKing Ted Hendricks, LB- Murrell2878 Elroy Hirsch, FL- DonnieIsTheKing Paul Hornung, HB- not drafted Sam Huff, LB- JetGreen Don Hutson, E- kevin68 Deacon Jones, DE- Murrell2878 Sonny Jurgensen, QB- Cakes Paul Krause, S- Jonathan_Vilma Jack Lambert, LB- Jonathan_Vilma Dick (Night Train) Lane, CB- Wolfe Tone Willie Lanier, LB- MSUJet85 Steve Largent, WR- MSUJet85 Bobby Layne, QB- not drafted Bob Lilly, DT- Cakes Ronnie Lott, CB/S- JetGreen Sid Luckman, QB- not drafted John Mackey, TE- ganooch Gino Marchetti, DE- DonnieIsTheKing Dan Marino, QB- 1028 Ollie Matson, HB- not drafted Hugh McElhenny, HB- not drafted Ron Mix, G/T- kevin68 Joe Montana, QB- MSUJet85 Lenny Moore, FL/HB- not drafted Marion Motley, FB- MSUJet85 Anthony Munoz, T- Jonathan_Vilma Bronko Nagurski, FB- Wolfe Tone Joe Namath, QB- JetGreen Ernie Nevers, FB- not drafted Ray Nitschke, LB- Murrell2878 Merlin Olsen, DT- DonnieIsTheKing Jim Otto, C- kevin68 Alan Page, DT- Jonathan_Vilma Jim Parker, G/T- MSUJet85 Walter Payton, RB- DonnieIsTheKing Jerry Rice, WR- Cakes Barry Sanders, RB- 1028 Deion Sanders, CB- 1028 Gale Sayers, RB- Murrell2878 Joe Schmidt, LB- 1028 Art Shell, T- Wolfe Tone O.J. Simpson, RB- kevin68 Mike Singletary, LB- Wolfe Tone Bruce Smith, DE- kevin68 Emmitt Smith, RB- JetGreen Bart Starr, QB- ganooch Roger Staubach, QB- Cakes Ernie Stautner, DT- kevin68 Dwight Stephenson, C- Jonathan_Vilma Fran Tarkenton, QB- MSUJet85 Charley Taylor, WR/RB- 1028 Jim Taylor, FB- DonnieIsTheKing Lawrence Taylor, LB- Jonathan_Vilma Jim Thorpe, B- MSUJet85 Emlen Tunnell, S- kevin68 Clyde (Bulldog) Turner, C/LB- Cakes Johnny Unitas, QB- JetGreen Gene Upshaw, G- Murrell2878 Norm Van Brocklin, QB- not drafted Steve Van Buren, HB- not drafted Paul Warfield, WR- Cakes Mike Webster, C- 1028 Reggie White, DE- Wolfe Tone Larry Wilson, S- 1028 Kellen Winslow, TE- 1028 Rod Woodson, CB/S- JetGreen Steve Young, QB- Jonathan_Vilma the numbers- not drafted- 12 Cakes- 12 Jonathan_Vilma- 11 MSUJet85- 10 1028- 10 kevin68- 8 Murrell2878- 8 DonnieIsTheKing- 8 ganooch- 7 Wolfe Tone- 7 JetGreen- 7 Players we drafted who were active after 2000 and could crack this list should the NFL update it soon: Marshall Faulk- Cakes (would definitely crack it) Michael Strahan- Jonathan_Vilma (would be considered) Jonathan Ogden- DonnieIsTheKing (would be looked at) Willie Roaf- DonnieIsTheKing (might be looked at) Marvin Harrison- JetGreen (would be considered) Tony Gonzalez- JetGreen (would probably make it) Shannon Sharpe- Murrell2878 (I'd put him in the top 100) Cris Carter- Murrell2878 (probably not because he would have been on the list already) Ray Lewis- ganooch (he'll make it) Derrick Brooks- ganooch (maybe) Walter Jones- ganooch (would be strongly considered) Tom Brady- kevin68 (looks like he would definitely crack it)
Any player added to the list, a player gets taken off since it is only 100. So a player who is on the list that was drafted could be removed the next time the list is updated.
Absolutely, and this gives me a small project here. I hate analyzing the old ones like Grange, Nevers, and Thorpe because I have seen very little film on them and what stats they have are not terribly accurate. I'll list the guys I think would go in and who they'd replace. Randy Moss is another tough one. I failed to note him in the previous post.
I do not know who were the last few players in. All those 100 players were great, but in my opinion these fellows are the most in danger of being knocked off: Tom Fears Paul Hornung Tony Dorsett Franco Harris Willie Davis Lenny Moore Norm Van Brocklin Bulldog Turner Ernie Stautner As of this date, I'd put in Marshall Faulk, Tony Gonzalez, Ray Lewis, and Tom Brady. I'd remove Moore, Hornung, Fears, and Dorsett. And as I wrote earlier- Sharpe. Van Brocklin can take a hike.
Last month in this thread I posted The Sporting News top 100 list. An asterick denotes the player appears on both the NFL and TSN lists. *Herb Adderley, CB- MSUJet85 *Lance Alworth, WR- ganooch *Lem Barney, CB- Cakes *Sammy Baugh, QB- Wolfe Tone (drafted as punter) *Chuck Bednarik, LB/C- 1028 *Bobby Bell, LB- Cakes *Raymond Berry, E- Murrell2878 *Fred Biletnikoff, WR- Jonathan_Vilma *Mel Blount, CB- Jonathan_Vilma *Terry Bradshaw, QB- kevin68 *Jim Brown, FB- ganooch *Roosevelt Brown, T- 1028 *Willie Brown, CB- Jonathan_Vilma *Buck Buchanan, DT- Cakes *Dick Butkus, LB- Cakes *Earl Campbell, RB- ganooch Larry Csonka, FB- JetGreen *Willie Davis, DE- not drafted *Eric Dickerson, RB- Jonathan_Vilma *Mike Ditka, TE- MSUJet85 *Tony Dorsett, RB- ganooch *John Elway, QB- DonnieIsTheKing *Brett Favre, QB- Wolfe Tone Tom Fears, E- not drafted *Otto Graham, QB- Murrell2878 *Red Grange, HB- not drafted *Darrell Green, CB- Murrell2878 *Joe Greene, DT- MSUJet85 *Forrest Gregg, G/T- ganooch *Jack Ham, LB- Cakes *John Hannah, G- Cakes *Franco Harris, RB- DonnieIsTheKing *Mel Hein, C- DonnieIsTheKing *Ted Hendricks, LB- Murrell2878 *Elroy Hirsch, FL- DonnieIsTheKing Paul Hornung, HB- not drafted *Sam Huff, LB- JetGreen *Don Hutson, E- kevin68 *Deacon Jones, DE- Murrell2878 Sonny Jurgensen, QB- Cakes Paul Krause, S- Jonathan_Vilma *Jack Lambert, LB- Jonathan_Vilma *Dick (Night Train) Lane, CB- Wolfe Tone *Willie Lanier, LB- MSUJet85 *Steve Largent, WR- MSUJet85 *Bobby Layne, QB- not drafted *Bob Lilly, DT- Cakes *Ronnie Lott, CB/S- JetGreen *Sid Luckman, QB- not drafted *John Mackey, TE- ganooch *Gino Marchetti, DE- DonnieIsTheKing *Dan Marino, QB- 1028 Ollie Matson, HB- not drafted Hugh McElhenny, HB- not drafted Ron Mix, G/T- kevin68 *Joe Montana, QB- MSUJet85 *Lenny Moore, FL/HB- not drafted *Marion Motley, FB- MSUJet85 *Anthony Munoz, T- Jonathan_Vilma *Bronko Nagurski, FB- Wolfe Tone *Joe Namath, QB- JetGreen Ernie Nevers, FB- not drafted *Ray Nitschke, LB- Murrell2878 *Merlin Olsen, DT- DonnieIsTheKing *Jim Otto, C- kevin68 *Alan Page, DT- Jonathan_Vilma *Jim Parker, G/T- MSUJet85 *Walter Payton, RB- DonnieIsTheKing *Jerry Rice, WR- Cakes *Barry Sanders, RB- 1028 *Deion Sanders, CB- 1028 *Gale Sayers, RB- Murrell2878 *Joe Schmidt, LB- 1028 *Art Shell, T- Wolfe Tone *O.J. Simpson, RB- kevin68 *Mike Singletary, LB- Wolfe Tone *Bruce Smith, DE- kevin68 *Emmitt Smith, RB- JetGreen *Bart Starr, QB- ganooch *Roger Staubach, QB- Cakes Ernie Stautner, DT- kevin68 *Dwight Stephenson, C- Jonathan_Vilma *Fran Tarkenton, QB- MSUJet85 *Charley Taylor, WR/RB- 1028 Jim Taylor, FB- DonnieIsTheKing *Lawrence Taylor, LB- Jonathan_Vilma *Jim Thorpe, B- MSUJet85 *Emlen Tunnell, S- kevin68 Clyde (Bulldog) Turner, C/LB- Cakes *Johnny Unitas, QB- JetGreen *Gene Upshaw, G- Murrell2878 Norm Van Brocklin, QB- not drafted *Steve Van Buren, HB- not drafted *Paul Warfield, WR- Cakes *Mike Webster, C- 1028 *Reggie White, DE- Wolfe Tone *Larry Wilson, S- 1028 *Kellen Winslow, TE- 1028 *Rod Woodson, CB/S- JetGreen *Steve Young, QB- Jonathan_Vilma Made the TSN list, but not the NFL list: Bill George, LB- DonnieIsTheKing Randy White, DT- JetGreen Ken Houston, S- 1028 Marcus Allen, RB- MSUJet85 Larry Little, G- Cakes Jack Christiansen, S- DonnieIsTheKing Art Monk, WR- JetGreen Dan Fouts, QB- ganooch Mike Haynes, CB- DonnieIsTheKing Troy Aikman, QB- Wolfe Tone George Blanda, QB/K- not drafted Lou Groza, K- MSUJet85 Charlie Joiner, WR- ganooch
I dont know enough about Turner or Stautner but would think that one of those should go before Dorsett. I'm also kind of suprised you would boot Dorsett before Franco as I believe that Franco gets overlooked in these type of things more than Dorsett.
Turner- 2nd team 50th Anniversary Team, 1940s All-Decade Team Stautner- 2nd team 50th Anniversary Team, 1950s All-Decade Team Harris- 1970s All-Decade Team Dorsett- no all-time team honors My knock on Dorsett was I don't think he is on the same level as backs like Sayers, Brown, Campbell, Payton, Faulk, Simpson, Van Buren, Matson, etc. I think Dorsett's numbers were inflated in Dallas. He came into a perfect scenario. The Cowboys were at their peak when he arrived. The knock on Harris was that he wasn't physical. He would rather run out of bounds than make contact with a defender to try to gain one or two more yards. That enabled him to have a long career. Both Dorsett and Harris belong in the Hall of Fame, but in my opinion they are in the bottom tier of Hall of Famers. I don't think Dorsett and Harris were that much better, if at all, than guys like O.J. Anderson, Chuck Foreman, Chris Warren, William Andrews, Freeman McNeil, Gerald Riggs, Larry Brown, etc. Of course, some of those guys got hurt and that's part of it. Longevity and durability count. But what I am saying is ability-wise I don't find Dorsett and Harris to be better than those guys. I think Dorsett and Harris are in the HOF due to longevity and for being famous, as in Hall of Fame. I have Dorsett and Harris about as equal as can be. They both had eerily similar fumbles/touches numbers. Dorsett 90/3334; Harris 90/3266. 100-yard games- Dorsett 44 (plus 3 in postseason), Harris 47 (plus 5 postseason) average rushing yards per game- Dorsett 74, Harris 71 Stautner was a defensive tackle for the Steelers when they were bad. He was from Germany and was the biggest factor on the tough Steelers defenses from 1950-63. Turner, of course, coached the Titans in 1962. He was a six-time all-pro at center. He also played linebacker and led the league in interceptions in 1942.
I think that part of the reason why Dorsett never made any all time decade teams is that he was a tweener. He started in the mid 70's and stopped being effective in the mid 80's. 1977-1987 with the Cowboys. SO in the 70's he was overlooked by Harris, Campbell, Csonka and in the 80's there was Barry, Payton and Riggins. Just a blurb. All-NFL, 1981. . . NFC rushing champion, 1982. . . Career totals: 12,739 yards rushing; 398 receptions for 3,554 yards, 16,347 combined net yards, 91 touchdowns. Like Harris who gets over shadowed in his career by the defense and Terry Bradshaw, Dorsett gets over shadowed by Roger, Too Tall, White and Martin. My whole point was that Franco is the guy who is usually forgotten about when making these lists as he wasnt the flashy one just steady and he is usually one of the last "named" Steelers mentioned when discussing the 70's Steelers. It just suprised me that you would drop Dorsett off the list before Franco.
Dorsett had more carries than Riggins in the 1980s and played four more years in the decade, but Riggins was the one who made the all-decade team. Those all-decade teams are put together based on quality of play more so than number of years played in the decade. Butkus made the '70s team and only played till 1973. There are other similar cases like that. I haven't found a glaring omission yet on any of the all-decade teams. There are cases I can quibble with, but nothing is outlandishly out of whack. That's why I made a thread with those lists. Surprisingly, people seemed to pay little mind to it. Anyway, here are the Dorsett and Riggins rushing attempt numbers year-by-year in the 1980s. 1980- Dorsett 278 1981- Dorsett 342, Riggins 195 1982- Dorsett 177, Riggins 177 1983- Dorsett 289, Riggins 375 1984- Dorsett 302, Riggins 327 1985- Dorsett 305, Riggins 176 1986- Dorsett 184 1987- Dorsett 130 1988- Dorsett 181
We need to change how we are judging these teams, the vote turnout isn't enough to judge these teams, I mean early on the vote turnout was good, but now it is about half or less than what it was in week 1, and it has gotten worse each week that this is dragged on
I agree. I thought we were going to see scores like 79-67 and 82-64 and stuff. Instead we're seeing scores like 14-9 and 13-3.
Should I post these games in the BS section? It'll run the risk of getting buried but it may get more exposure
I'd be very opposed to that. We would get much more votes, but a lot of them would be silly ones. There's too much weird stuff going on in that forum.
To follow up with my previous post, the environment is just not good in the bullshit section. Everything turns into a joke there. At least in this forum, people theoretically would put some thought into their votes. Even here we may be having some trolls casting votes. Now we are seeing fewer votes each week. I had an idea for the all-time baseball tournament and I'll run it by here (I think I may have mentioned it here already, if so, I'll try again). There are ten of us and here we are on Friday and some games only have 11 or 12 votes. Assuming the ten of us with teams are voting in all the games, the voting turnout is absurdly low. Why not just have the ten of us, along with a few other people who wish to partake in it (such as kinghenry89, WinstonBiggs, ButtleMan, etc.- those people who have shown interest in this tournament) discuss the teams openly? We can create a discussion thread where we would store the team bios and what have you. Then a few days later we each rank the teams 1-10 (maybe for those with a team, you cannot rank your own team) and we determine a champion that way. It's an idea, at least. It might be better than the current voting system.
Code: AFC W L T PCT VF VA 1028 2 1 1 .625 46 40 Jonathan_Vilma 2 2 0 .500 48 39 ganooch 1 2 1 .375 32 42 MSUJet85 1 3 0 .250 39 37 kevin68 0 4 0 .000 22 47 NFC Cakes 4 0 0 1.000 53 37 DonnieIsTheKing 3 1 0 .750 46 35 Murrell2878 3 1 0 .750 44 36 JetGreen 2 2 0 .500 43 39 Wolfe Tone 1 3 0 .250 40 61
It looks like we will be continuing with the voting. Five more regular season weeks plus two playoff weeks. We'll be done on August 27, unless we make the title game two weeks long or something. Votes by week: Week 1- 137 Week 2- 106 Week 3- 102 Week 4- 68 Fewest votes in one game: 12, MSUJet85 vs 1028, Week 4 Most votes in one game: 31, MSUJet85 vs DonnieIsTheKing, Week 1 31, JetGreen vs Wolfe Tone, Week 1 This means that 12 is the maximum number of people who could have voted for all 20 games thus far. EDIT: This is pretty darn low considering there are ten of us in the tournament and I'll assume all ten of us have voted in all 20 games. That 12 number is a maximum. It's possible there have been only ten people who have voted in all 20 games. It could be even less than that, if not all of us in the tournament have been voting in each game. Four games in Week 4 had 14 voters. The other game only had the 12. Therefore, we still haven't gotten the message out there to voters that there are five games per week. All the games should have the same number of votes. A tidbit: 17 times the team I felt was better (hence, that team got my vote) has won 2 times the team I felt was better has lost 1 tie
